British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 01-02-21, 12:33 AM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,001
Default

If there is anything I have learned, quality of manufacture is certainly NOT an indicator of originality. It is only one possible factor; highly dependent upon a given badge.
Many perfectly genuine badges are actually not as good as many fakes in this regard.
Quality is so often used as by collectors to judge badges in any field, and with good reason in many cases, however, it cannot be held to be paramount.

CB
__________________
Bdr. Parker Windle MM, A Btry. 210th (E. Lancs.) RFA WW1 , fr. Burnley
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-02-21, 10:15 AM
grenadierguardsman's Avatar
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
The badge is not from a different die.

Both badges are from the same die, the BP die. The badge in the opening post is however mis-struck and the photograph is of a lower resolution.
Ok then Luke, the quality is poor then.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-02-21, 10:16 AM
grenadierguardsman's Avatar
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 3,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbuehler View Post
If there is anything I have learned, quality of manufacture is certainly NOT an indicator of originality. It is only one possible factor; highly dependent upon a given badge.
Many perfectly genuine badges are actually not as good as many fakes in this regard.
Quality is so often used as by collectors to judge badges in any field, and with good reason in many cases, however, it cannot be held to be paramount.

CB
Agreed, you make some good points there.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-02-21, 11:13 AM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubaiguy View Post
Hopefully adding to our knowledge of this maker's badges since Ticker's detective work, I've just come across this one.

Expanding on Luke's comments on die quality, I would tentatively class this badge as average for a WWI produced badge, but not as good as say Gaunt's.
Cheers
Mark
In addition to the TF Suffolk and Duke of Wellingtonís, off the top of my head, Iíve also seen...

Notts & Derby Regt
The Yorkshire Regt
Royal Irish Rifles
South Staffordshire Regt
Durham Light Infantry
Liverpool Pals
TF Middlesex Regt
Machine Gun Corps
Norfolk Yeomanry

There is very likely more.

The one with a stratified date is the Liverpool Pals. Itís the 1917 version being die struck with a slider according to Julianís research. I believe he stated the change was mid-1917. Tickerís Board of Trade Labour Gazette research shows BP had two contracts in 1917 awarded January and August.

So cross-referencing the two logically the Liverpool Pals must have been made from August 1917 onwards. The quality of these is generally relatively poor.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-02-21, 07:52 PM
eddie's Avatar
eddie eddie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: South Wales
Posts: 102
Default

Hi,
I have one to the Monmouthshire Regiment.
Cheers,
Eddie
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-02-21, 08:06 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,969
Default

I’d love to see it please Dave.

I have a Smith & Wright marked Mons but never seen a BP one.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-02-21, 08:48 PM
marinus's Avatar
marinus marinus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 123
Default South Staffordshire Regiment badge by "Bodill Parker & Co. Ltd"

Good evening,

Nice thread.
Here's my South Staffordshire badge by Bodill Parker & Co. Ltd for reference.

Marinus
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SSTAFFS-BADGE-03-2.jpg (31.9 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg SSTAFFS-BADGE-03-1.jpg (37.6 KB, 12 views)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-02-21, 01:28 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
The mark is original and the badge is from the BP die which is quite different to any fake Suffolk Regt die. There is no doubt.

Fake BP marks lack the a full stop after the Dís underscore. See posts #6 and #7 here: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ight=Lambourne

There is a real dichotomy with the quality of BP badges, some like the Norfolk Yeomanry and Royal Irish Rifles are quite good quality whereas others like Liverpool Pals, Suffolk TF, South Staffs, are quite poor quality.

Your Suffolk badge is actually quite a good example of a BP badge, many are found with very poorly struck crowns and wonky scrolls.

Tickerís wonderful research showed Bodill Parker being awarded badge contracts in December 1915, January, February, March, May, August & September 1916 and January and August 1917.

I strongly suspect the differing quality is reflective of manufacturing from different dates.
A typo re. fake BP & Co Mark's lacking the full stop after the D underscore, or am I misreading?

A yellow metal Yorkshire Regiment badge with the D underscore full stop (bought back before I knew brass WWI economies of white metal badges weren't produced).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20210202_131302~2.jpg (42.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 20210202_131314~2.jpg (42.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 20210202_131335~2.jpg (30.4 KB, 14 views)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-02-21, 02:13 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
A typo re. fake BP & Co Mark's lacking the full stop after the D underscore, or am I misreading?

A yellow metal Yorkshire Regiment badge with the D underscore full stop (bought back before I knew brass WWI economies of white metal badges weren't produced).
A fake.

Typo on my part you can see the underscores are on different heights.

This is a genuine one. You can see the difference mentioned in the mark and also that they’re from a different die. Yours being from the MM fake die.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 2202EE17-ACEA-46FB-B446-A3D26DAFEF70.jpeg (52.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpeg 0A0412E3-49EE-4D46-B9D0-5D533FAE0F36.jpeg (52.0 KB, 16 views)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-02-21, 02:16 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,943
Default

Yes, my one's a fake "WWI economy" of an all white metal badge - just that it has the full stop, your post stated that the fake mark's dont have the full stop?.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-02-21, 06:37 PM
eddie's Avatar
eddie eddie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: South Wales
Posts: 102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie View Post
Hi,
I have one to the Monmouthshire Regiment.
Cheers,
Eddie
Just added photos for comments not sure looking at the other ones.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C8283790-21AF-4709-9B2E-D4664EAEC869.jpg (32.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 8B8959D0-289F-490C-8810-70CBA980E328.jpg (37.5 KB, 18 views)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-02-21, 06:45 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie View Post
Just added photos for comments not sure looking at the other ones.
Sorry that is not a genuine BP mark.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-02-21, 06:49 PM
eddie's Avatar
eddie eddie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: South Wales
Posts: 102
Default

Hi Luke,
Yes that what I thought, looking at the others.
Cheers,
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-02-21, 06:52 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 2,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Yes, my one's a fake "WWI economy" of an all white metal badge - just that it has the full stop, your post stated that the fake mark's dont have the full stop?.
Sorry for the confusion Leigh.

There’s two repro BP marks and I mixed them up.

The ToysRus mark has all the full stops and underscores, rather the underscore alignment is wrong being too high.

The other, and I believe more recent, fake BP Mark is a more accurate in terms of font and underscore alignment but is missing the full stop I referred to.

Hopefully that clarifies.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FD41A08A-65C9-4531-AC4C-75E7C7B7D0CD.jpg (69.9 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 62D26E3A-6B09-473C-B270-2B5D011B0202.jpg (60.5 KB, 12 views)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-02-21, 06:56 PM
RSM's Avatar
RSM RSM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 173
Default

I too was wondering about that so thanks for clarifying Luke
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.