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#46
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Quote:
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#47
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Although they were not always correct (the scale of what they were doing was monumental) Kipling and King were meticulous with their research. They must have got their information from somewhere reputable (although not necessarily always correct) else I don’t think they would have published the caption.
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#48
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So it might well be the case that he has absolutely no idea whatsoever either then?
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#49
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#50
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#51
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You are right that Parkyn should not be seen as sacrosanct, but I do respect him, he had to do an awful lot of of legwork pre-internet and pre a lot of regimental museums. Much of what he discovered was in archives and among various collectors. It's easy for us to criticise now that we can talk to each other across the world on a phone or computer. |
#52
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There seems to be some good information here researched by a military historian (Charles Griffin) they are images of actual badges and it's interesting to see how the flame pattern definitely changed over the years:
"While officers had embroidered cap badges on their forage caps other ranks had a solid metal grenade badge. Privates had a plain smooth brass grenade, but Quartermasters, Warrant Officers and Sergeants had royal cyphers either in brass or silver". 1. Commissioned Quartermaster's forage cap badge. Gilt with silver crown and Victorian reversed cypher. 2. Sergeant's gilt badge with Victorian reverse cypher. No crown. 3. Sergeant's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher. 1902-1910. 4. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher in silver. 1902-1910. 5. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with George V crown and cypher. 1910-1936. There is a close similarity between the badge that started this thread and image Number 1 below, a commissioned QMs badge. |
#53
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Yes but Toby, is a white metal cypher or Gilt ? Two badges mentioned to the Quartermaster, but both are different. What is it, that's my point. Both contradicting each other, hence i don't believe it to be a Quartermaster badge.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#54
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Quote:
P.S. A really important note to make here is that Quartermasters did not originally have a regular commission as they do now (albeit LE category), they held only Honorary Rank and were made to dress differently to all other officers to make it clear that they were not perceived as gentlemen. It seems entirely likely to me that at that time of Honorary rank (the title was always along the lines: "Quartermaster AND Honorary Lieutenant"), a special badge was worn that differentiated the QM's cap from the other officers. I believe it is not for no reason that it is similar to the RSMs badge, from whom most Quartermasters sprang. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 31-01-19 at 08:17 PM. |
#55
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#56
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"QM and Riding Master commissions were "non-combatant", that is, they were not expected to command soldiers in action except in extremis, and they were not eligible for "normal" promotion within the regiment. Even as late as 1914 they were not full members of the Mess in some regiments, being allowed dining privileges once a week. The correct title for a QM was Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant on first appointment, and almost always promoted to that level from RSM or RQMS. Many a Sergeant-Major ended up as a QM and Hon Lt. Promotion on "time" was available and Major was unusual, but not impossible, on a different pay scale to combatants". Honorary Commissions continued to exist throughout WW1 and had historically been associated with what we would now call logistics. Many former SNCOs and WOs that were unable to secure a Quartermasters commission in their parent regiment obtained commissions in the ASC, AOC or their forebears, the commissary and ordnance services. Here is an excellent and extraordinary example of a career for a man who began his service with the Scots Fusilier Guards, note that even as a Lieutenant Colonel he only ever held honorary rank: https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/1664493 Last edited by Toby Purcell; 31-01-19 at 08:57 PM. |
#57
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#58
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Toby and Andy
From the 1914 to 1918 Army Lists, only five men were Quartermasters of the Grenadier Guards battalions which may account for the rarity of this badge: 1914 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (3rd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Skidimore (2nd Batt) 1915 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (3rd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Skidimore (2nd Batt) Hon. Capt. J. Rolinson (4th Reserve Batt) 1916 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt) ? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt) 1917 Hon. Capt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Capt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt) ? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt) 1918 Hon. Capt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Capt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Capt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt) ? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt) Regards Bill |
#59
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Thanks button.
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#60
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Is this dealer a member on this Forum ? Ive message him a few times, but haven't had a reply ? With regards to him removing the said badge from sale on eBay.
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
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