What does “NZMGS” stand for??????

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

I have a few photo's in my collection of groups of NZEF convalescents wearing hospital blues and lemon squeezers ,over 2/3 are wearing badges. I will scan and post them if you like

Thanks for the pics Puk, are they dated by any chance?
As part of my on-going hat and onward badge research I am mainly interested in all NZ convalescent photos that date between 1915 to the end of 1916.
I would also be interested in any Boer war 1899 – 1902 convalescent photos showing NZ headdress being worn.

The following picture of wounded New Zealanders is dated May 1900, and was taken at Rondebosch field hospital in Capetown. (Note the chap standing on the left appears to be wearing a serge hospital jacket with white lapels)



The following picture (also dated May 1900) shows New Zealand wounded at Wentworth in Kimberley. The interesting array of hats being worn in both pictures is I suspect due to a supply of hats knitted from all over England by civilians, to provide extra comfort to wounded soldiers.



The following picture of wounded New Zealanders is dated November 1915, and was taken in Epsom England.



The following picture of wounded New Zealanders is dated March 1916, and was taken at King George Hospital.

[atillathenunns]

Just for the badge puritans we have some NZ convalescent badge art.
(Interestingly the NZMGS badge is the only reinforcement badge)

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Trooper John Frederick Weir served with the 1st NZMGS in Palestine 1st November 1917 till the 12th August 1918.The badges on the tunic are his actual reinforcement collar badges and reinforcement numbers ,but as this is a coming home tunic they probably wouldn't have been worn .They will remain on tunic until the correct combination can be found (most likely NZMGC collar badges).British made, felt hat, with a plain pugaree ,as worn by some NZ troops in the Middle East

The 3rd pattern NZMGS collar badges certainly don’t seem to be a good fit.
I have only seen three different types of lug arrangements on NZMGC collar badges, and I think we can rule out the diagonal lug type, which leaves the 3 pin (Gaunt) NZMGC collar and the 2 pin (Horizontal) NZMGC collar badge.
How many badge holes are on the collar, 2 or 3?
When the NZMGS collar badges are removed and the collar is flattened out, what are the distances between the holes?
Have you applied for Weir’s service records yet.
Is there a seem at the back of the British puggaree? As I am thinking it may be on back to front.

[pukman]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

The 3rd pattern NZMGS collar badges certainly don’t seem to be a good fit.
I have only seen three different types of lug arrangements on NZMGC collar badges, and I think we can rule out the diagonal lug type, which leaves the 3 pin (Gaunt) NZMGC collar and the 2 pin (Horizontal) NZMGC collar badge.
How many badge holes are on the collar, 2 or 3?
When the NZMGS collar badges are removed and the collar is flattened out, what are the distances between the holes?
Have you applied for Weir’s service records yet.
Is there a seem at the back of the British puggaree? As I am thinking it may be on back to front.

Brent,

Removed one collar badge for a look when I got the jacket .There are definitely only 2 lug holes ,horizontal ,east to west, about 25mm which I think would accommodate a NZMGC horizontally lugged collar badges .The specialist collar on it at present is only 20mm so there is some leeway .Are the NZMR shoulder titles alright or would a NZMGS be better .The previous owner who got all the effects from the family added the numerals and specialists badges only (they were in Weirs effects),as he thought they represented best the arrangement in the portrait. They will do now until I can get the correct badges .

The British made felt hat ,with the trademark British 3 rings of stitching and press dome ,has also got 'Made in England '' on the stud to confirm the fact .

The puggare is the big question for me .There is at least one other hat like this one in NZ and four in Australia ,British made with the plain pug .According to Rod W ,no Australian slouch hats had press studs and the hats and puggares are lighter weight than the British ones .The pug may well be back to front,I didn't realise .

I have yet to find an clear image of the British slouch hat to compere puggares with my example .Is this a British issue puggaree or is it just a unique one for us colonial types ??

Yes I have Weirs file ,He served 2 and a half years overseas ,but has 3 chevrons ,so he has embellished himself a bit .

Served in 1st NZMGC's in all his time on active service in the Middle East

[atillathenunns]

The lug gap on my horizontal 2 pin collar is approx 28mm measured from the base of the lugs, so should be a reasonable fit on the collar, and as the lugs are at the bottom of the NZMGC collar badge it will sit a bit higher than the NZMGS badges which are too low.

[pukman]

As for the convalescent RPPC's ,while there are a few names and notes on them ,the only one with the full date is the large group (3/8/18)

Here is another I found in the collection that I believe might date from early 1916

And my favourite convalescent photo,(my Grand father Jack Davidson,,the tallest fella near the centre ,back row)

[pukman]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

The 3rd pattern NZMGS collar badges certainly don’t seem to be a good fit.
I have only seen three different types of lug arrangements on NZMGC collar badges, and I think we can rule out the diagonal lug type, which leaves the 3 pin (Gaunt) NZMGC collar and the 2 pin (Horizontal) NZMGC collar badge.
How many badge holes are on the collar, 2 or 3?
When the NZMGS collar badges are removed and the collar is flattened out, what are the distances between the holes?
Have you applied for Weir’s service records yet.
Is there a seem at the back of the British puggaree? As I am thinking it may be on back to front.

Brent ,

I have shifted the puggaree to its correct position (the first photo is how I received it)

Just as clarification , when you say ''British puggaree '' do you mean British made or British worn. The only pictures I can find off British soldiers wearing a felt hat (slouch or bush) in WW1 they are wearing a folded puggaree or a T.F. thin leather puggaree rather than this plain band .

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Brent ,

I have shifted the puggaree to its correct position (the first photo is how I received it)

Just as clarification , when you say ''British puggaree '' do you mean British made or British worn. The only pictures I can find off British soldiers wearing a felt hat (slouch or bush) in WW1 they are wearing a folded puggaree or a T.F. thin leather puggaree rather than this plain band .

Iain it looks much better with the puggaree on the correct way.
In answer to your question, your hat and puggaree were made by a British manufacturer contracted by the New Zealand High Commission in London to supply felt hats for its forces in Europe and the Middle East.

Generally speaking, the British moth balled their bush hats in 1905 and didn’t really embrace them again until WW2, instead for the hot climates during WW1, the British soldier was usually only issued the regulation khaki Foreign Service (Universal) helmet.

Photographic evidence shows that New Zealanders often removed the British made (Generic) puggaree, substituting them for a New Zealand puggaree. (Most common)
Photographic evidence and surviving examples show that the New Zealand puggaree was worn over the top of the British puggaree.

The following was taken in Palestine 1917




The following two photos taken 11th August 1918 at the NZ Motor Transport Company workshops at Bonnieres in France shows some felt hats being worn without NZ puggarees, including one with just a British puggaree being worn.

[pukman]

Brent ,

As I have told before ''the puggaree you have pictured is standard British issue"' on another thread ,I had to go out and explore the option .The British did indeed wear British felt hats( Slouch/bush /smasher) in WW1 in Mesopotamia and Salonika in WW1.While no one can seem to find a photo of an actual example of a WW1 hat ,from period photo's the hats are a lower profile shape and have full folded puggarees .The British territorials also wore a felt hat but that had a thin leather puggaree.

So British manufactured it is .

There however does seem to be a small number of these hats in Australian collections ,so may be the Australians also had a contract with the same hat manufacturer ??? .

It must be pointed out that these hats were probably replacements for lost or damaged hats in theatre ,and also ''coming home'' hats .

I only hypothesise when I think about the puggaree issue .I am guessing in the Middle East replacement puggarees were not in plentiful supply ,so you either were supplied one, rescued one of your damaged hat or had to make do with the plain pug if the first two options were not available .The European theatre would be different as supplies of uniforms and specifically in the case puggarres were more plentiful .

While there are informal photo's of NZ'ers wearing the hat brim up,slouch style , it was against regulation's as from September 1916 to do so.The hat would have been worn brim down under the watchful eyes of military authorities .

Unfortunately when it comes to wearing of the Plain puggarre by NZers ,as nothing has been referenced in books ,so therefore its not mainstream ,so not widely known or misrepresented .

Here are three pictures of NZers wearing the plain puggaree hat (the first courtesy of Barry O'Sullivan )

The second is from a photo album from the Palestine theatre ,and the 3rd is off a 3rd Auckland infantry warrant officer in England (either dated September 1915 or 1916)
Noel Burnett is an interesting one, wounded at Gallipoli, went to England in June 1915 ,returned only to be wounded 2nd occasion, died of wounds
December 1915

Iain

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

There however does seem to be a small number of these hats in Australian collections ,so may be the Australians also had a contract with the same hat manufacturer ??? .

Iain, the Australians were indeed supplied with British press stud slouch hats with standard British issue puggaree. However I cannot say for sure if they were official issue, private purchase or both although I am heavily leaning towards them being officially issued.

What I can say for sure, is that all known surviving Australian examples of British press stud slouch hats with standard British issue puggaree have been attributed to the European theatre.

The fact that so far no surviving examples or clear photographs of them being worn by Australians in the Middle East campaign, and taking into account that there are a few surviving New Zealand examples in collections and plenty of evidence showing them being worn by New Zealanders during the Middle East campaign, who when you think about it were only a quarter the size of the Australian forces. This suggests to me the Australians were either not issued with British press stud slouch hats with the standard British issue puggarees in the Middle East, or alternatively they were issued with them but only in small numbers. (This does not include other variations of British made slouch hats which are another subject on their own)

Originally Posted by pukman

While there are informal photo's of NZ'ers wearing the hat brim up,slouch style , it was against regulation's as from September 1916 to do so.The hat would have been worn brim down under the watchful eyes of military authorities .

The order to wear the brim down by the NZEF in Europe was in March 1916, and is reported to have been issued so as to easily distinguish New Zealand soldiers from Australian soldiers.

However around the same time back in New Zealand, increased demands for reinforcements had created shortages of felt hats, so the order to wear the brim down was driven by economy.
The brass lion head holding the brim up was removed, the brim was decreased from the regulation 3 inches to 2 ½ inches. This may not seem much but when you’re talking about a contract order of 60,000 felt hats, that half inch soon adds up.

I would like to also point out that in 1912 the NZ Artillery did for a time wear their slouch hat with the brim down, but put them back up when the 1912 dress regulations were issued, this is I believe the reason for the confusion on why a number of book writers have incorrectly claimed the NZ Artillery were the first to adopt the lemon squeezer shape.

Originally Posted by pukman

Unfortunately when it comes to wearing of the Plain puggarre by NZers ,as nothing has been referenced in books ,so therefore its not mainstream ,so not widely known or misrepresented .

That’s why I am going to all this effort to explain it, such is the brother hood of collecting and sharing.

Just for the badge and machinegun nuts the following picture of Martin Eccles (Service No. 11/1145) was taken in Palestine in 1918.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

.he British did indeed wear British felt hats( Slouch/bush /smasher) in WW1 in Mesopotamia and Salonika in WW1.While no one can seem to find a photo of an actual example of a WW1 hat ,from period photo's the hats are a lower profile shape and have full folded puggarees .The British territorials also wore a felt hat but that had a thin leather puggaree.

Yes there were some territorial units with special permission within the British military that did continue to wear the regulation felt hat after 1905, and yes the regulation felt hat was reintroduced in 1915 for use by some British military units, in particular newly formed units specially selected for service in the Middle East.
Supply however seems to be ad hoc as most period group photo’s I have seen show the helmet usually being worn, or when the Bush hat is photographed being worn by British troops it is usually in with a mix with helmets and SD caps.
In war time the “profile shape” of British soldiers felt hats as with New Zealand felt hats varied from unit to unit and in many cases varied within the unit itself. (I have a picture of a British soldier wearing his felt hat in the shape of a lemon squeezer)

I had planned to return to completing the post on Corporal Thomas Mitchell, who served with the 29th Reinforcements Specialists Company, Signal Section (Post # 289), but I haven’t managed to get photos of his reinforcement badges yet, so instead I might put together a quick summary of the evolution of the New Zealand Mounted rifles hat and its puggaree, and try to make it relevant to Weir’s Mounted rifles hat that he wore with the NZMGS in Palestine.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

As for the convalescent RPPC's ,while there are a few names and notes on them ,the only one with the full date is the large group (3/8/18)

Here is another I found in the collection that I believe might date from early 1916

And my favourite convalescent photo,(my Grand father Jack Davidson,,the tallest fella near the centre ,back row)

Iain, always nice to see a family pictures put up for viewing.

Dated 1915 – 1916 convalescent photos are very important to the understanding of the second generation of British felt hats and puggaree issued to New Zealand soldiers, the first being those issued to the NZ British Section.

What is known is that there was a big shortage of felt hats to supply NZ Forces during the 1915 – 1916 period. The causes for this were primarily due to the increasing number of NZ reinforcements being processed, and the time taken to get a second New Zealand hat manufacturer up to speed to take on military contracts to produce military hats. Combine this with a shortage of labour due to rabbit hunters and skilled hat workers answering the call of duty, you can understand why they decreased the brim size and the quality of the New Zealand made felt hat dropped noticeably with the change from rabbit fur mix to a wool mix felt.

Little is published regarding the British issue felt hats and puggarees, but it was logical that all wounded New Zealanders who were initially sent to England (without headdress) were to be supplied British made hats due to the difficult logistics of having them sent from New Zealand.
Until proper supply depots for New Zealand forces were established in England, wounded New Zealanders who were convalescing all over England, were in many cases forced to obtain at their own expense replacement felt hats (Private purchase, prices of which ranged from 7s 6d to 10s). Otherwise those who were lucky enough or waited long enough received their felt hat and puggaree sent to them at hospital by the Visiting Committee of the New Zealand War Contingent Association on behalf of the New Zealand High Commission in London.

It does not appear to me that there were any problems with supplies of NZ puggarees.

Interestingly, the supply of felt hats was considered urgent enough or fragile enough, that it appears the New Zealand Government ordered 12000 British made felt hats which were lost when the SS Rangatira ran aground at Robben Island due to fog on the 31st March 1916.

NZ Artillery Ordnance in England, with what appears to be New Zealand Manufactured Felt hats circa 1918.




Will post a quick summary of the evolution of the New Zealand Mounted rifles hat and its puggaree another day.

[pukman]

A good illustration of a WW1 press stud/snap fastener ,British made Lemon squeezer issued to a New Zealander .

[pukman]

Unidentified and undated ,but a NZMGS soldier ,photo taken in Cairo ,(post 31st October 1917)

.......and to kill two birds with one stone .The soldiers seated are wearing plain puggaree's underneath their NZMR one

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Unidentified and undated ,but a NZMGS soldier ,photo taken in Cairo ,(post 31st October 1917)

.......and to kill two birds with one stone .The soldiers seated are wearing plain puggaree's underneath their NZMR one

Puk that is another very interesting photo.
If possible I would like to see close ups of the other 3 chaps in the picture.

Interestingly the machine-gunner in the picture is also wearing a British made felt hat as can be seen by the air vents and the press stud which is just visible.
The NZ machine gun badge on the hat appears to be a collar sized badge, as does the hat badge worn by Martin Eccles in post#340 which may indicate supply shortages of NZMGC hat badges.