Cavalry NCO arm badge question

[cbuehler]

All,
Please help to clear some confusion regarding the use of arm badges. I had been under the impression that they were to be worn by Sergeants only, however I have seen photos of them in use by Corporals and even Lcpl. ( I recall the 12th L. and 3DG?) and even worn below the WO rank on BD blouses after ww2. Pre ww1 photos seem to show them on Sgts. only.
Were the use of these badges for NCO ranks a regimental affectation or dictated by regulations at differing times? Thanks.

CB

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

All,
Please help to clear some confusion regarding the use of arm badges. I had been under the impression that they were to be worn by Sergeants only, however I have seen photos of them in use by Corporals and even Lcpl. ( I recall the 12th L. and 3DG?) and even worn below the WO rank on BD blouses after ww2. Pre ww1 photos seem to show them on Sgts. only.
Were the use of these badges for NCO ranks a regimental affectation or dictated by regulations at differing times? Thanks.

CB

Hi CB

May I recommend to you a book entitled "Cavalry Warrant Officers' and Non-Commissioned Officers' Arm Badges" by David Linaker and Gordon Dine.
In my opinion this is the definitive book on the subject and you will not find a better one this side of eternity. To my great sorrow Major David Linaker, Royal Tank Regiment, passed away very suddenly late last year. Gordon Dine, another friend of long standing, now holds copies of the book and he can be contacted at:
5 West Wools
Southwell
Portland
Dorset
DT5 2EA
UK

Best wishes

Gordon

Hi Gents,
during WWII, the wearings of these badges are clearly specified for NCOs and WOs (by definition there are junior and senior NCOS but L/CPl and above are NCOs so it's not surprising to see L/Cpl wearing them)

Some of these badges appeared with the amalgamation of 2 regiments (i.e: 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards & 7th (Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards).

Regulations on where to wear them (WWII):
Corporals of the following cavalry regiments wore the badge above the rank chevrons:
1st Royal Dragoons, 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars, 13/18th Hussars, 15/19th King's Royal Hussars & 24th Lancers.

Sergeants wore it:
* above the chevrons as far as the 4/7th Dragoons Guards, 1st Royal Dragoons, Royal Scots Greys & 11th Hussars were concerned.
* on the chevrons for 5th ryal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, 8th King's royal irish Hussars, 13/18th Hussars, 15/19th King's Royal Hussars, 24th Lancers & CLY.

WO wore them below their right sleeve rank badge.

Hope it helps. Cheers
Phil

[cbuehler]

Thanks much folks. This does answer some questions. But am I correct in my thinking that prior to ww1, badges were only worn by Sergeants and then only above the chevrons? I am trying to find evidence of their use by Corporals before this time, but not coming up with anything yet.

CB

[John Mulcahy]

CB

Your questions are broad and this particular topic is highly complex. The following will only scratch the surface.

Wear by Cpls
The 14H cpls were officially authorised an arm badge in 1867. Photographic evidence shows it had spread to other regiments prior to the war - Cpls in 12L, c.1873, 10H & 19H by 1895.

Authorisations
generally speaking from 1801 Line Cav arm badges supply was a regimental responsibility at public expense (indirectly), From 1859 supply and regulation was centralised. In 1930 supply reverted to regimental control at regimental or individual expense.

Position of Wear
I shall leave to others with greater knowledge that I but I have seen photos of the 5DG wearing their arm badge on chevrons during Boer War

I also endorse Linaker & Dine, the gold standard in my opinion for research thus far. If you are interested in this field get a copy. The above info is from there. The late Maj. D.D.A. Linaker is an enormous loss to the hobby, David was very knowledgeable and very generous with this knowledge.

John

[wright241]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Thanks much folks. This does answer some questions. But am I correct in my thinking that prior to ww1, badges were only worn by Sergeants and then only above the chevrons? I am trying to find evidence of their use by Corporals before this time, but not coming up with anything yet.

CB

As John has already mentioned, there are pictures (definitely in the case of the 6ID...) of them being worn just above and on the chevrons. I am sure this is also the case with other regiments. You really do need the book that has already been referred to. There is also one by Peter Seaman - whilst a lot of the contents of both books are identical, there are also a number of differences that make both of them worth having.
In response to your comment about L/Cpl's - see below.
e.g. ref 8thKRIH - Peters book kas a picture of an NCO with the crown and harp ABOVE the chevrons and one of with the badge ON the chevrons.
ref 6thID - has a picture of a L/Cpl with an arm badge ABOVE (touching) and of a L/Cpl with an arm badge ON.

[Cardiffbloke]

Prior to WWI ALL KDG NCOs wore the arm badge; less the RSM and BM who both wore Officer's Kit. After WWI LCPLs did not wear the arm badge any more. The Bays Corporals and above wore the arm badge from introduction in 1910 right through to amalgamation in 1959. In both regiments, the RSM and BM adopted the wearing of the badge at an indeterminable period as they were not officially supposed to. However, they did! QDG wear the arm badge from Corporal right up to WO1.

[cbuehler]

Well, I certainly did not expect this to be so complex a subject! It does look like I will have to obtain the book. If I could pose one more query...did the 3rd DG Corporals wear the PoW feathers badge prior to ww1 as well?
Thanks again all,

CB

[1stTankie]

Hi CB
According to "Linaker and Dine" Cpls wore an embroidered Arm Badge from the 1880s and possibly earlier on the Stable Jacket. The Metal Badge was probably taken into use at the same time and initially Cpls wore the full size badge. ( In a photograph owned by RG Harris dated 1911 Sgts and Cpls have the same size badge but LCpls have a smaller one. However these may be embroidered badges.) "L&D" goes on to say that LCpls always seem to have had a smaller version. A photograph of part of the band in full dress shows both Cpls, Lcpls and Trumpeters wearing the smaller Arm badge c1913.
Post WW1 Cpls wore the full size metal Arm Badge.
Best wishes
Gordon

[rboorman]

The book mentioned can also be obtained from the shop of the National Army Museum in Chelsea.

[Alex Rice]

Hi All
Just to add to the confusion... In the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards a full corporal wears 2 stripes with the running horse above it, and a lance-corporal wears 2 stripes without the horse.
Cheers,
Alex

[Cardiffbloke]

Yep! In QDG, LCPLs also wear 2 stripes but no arm badge. It was Queen's Bays thing carried over at amalgamation.

[badjez]

Good evening all,

Have just rooted this out of Army Council Instructions:-

'29.10.30. ACI 430: WO & NCO of cavalry regiments may be permitted, at the discretion of CO’s of units, to wear metal badges of authorised regimental design on their service dress jackets, provided that no expense to the public is incurred.

These arm badges will be worn on the right arm as follows:-
By WO’s- below the badge of rank.
By NCO’s- either on or above rank chevrons'.

IMO this order is the authority for the reintroduction of these badges, in metal, after the Great War and the amalgamation of a number of cavalry regiments.

Please note it applies to Service Dress: at this date no other form of dress was authorised for 'other ranks'.

Reagrds, Stephen.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Hi All
Just to add to the confusion... In the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards a full corporal wears 2 stripes with the running horse above it, and a lance-corporal wears 2 stripes without the horse.
Cheers,
Alex

Same goes for the QRH,from the QRIH.Obviously the arm badges are different to RSDG

[davec2]

Hi CB,

I have not long had L.& D.'s book and it's a cracker, Peter Seaman also wrote a book on arm badges, at the moment, ' Noodles ' has one of L.& D.'s books in the for sale section, and at a good price !!!

Dave.