QOGLR

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I am of the impression that the date of 1993 is of the most importance here.

In 1993 the specification for cap badges changed from A/A to 'New Metal' and the maker mark of 'J.R. GAUNT B'HAM' was used at least during this date as modern 'New Metal' cap badges exist so marked. Indeed, I have an all 'New Metal' QOGTR item marked 'J.R. GAUNT B'HAM' and it looks OK to me. I also note on page 31 of my book that Firmin took over Gaunt in 1991 with all transactions and A/A manufacturing ceasing in Birmingham in 1993. References to this are given on page 38.

The A/A badges that I have seen and handled are all hybrid piece as per many Highland/Lowland Brigade (and other uses) badge still in use up to 2012 when they were removed from the inventory.

However, Mike_2817 has interesting news in his last post re: all A/A versions which would be nice to be officially verified but cannot be ignored.

Like it or not - the badge was authorised in 1993 which is the date of the transition from A/A to 'New Metal'. I am not aware of any other collector before me who came up with the date of authorisation of this piece so I find it hard to believe that someone decided to mate a A/A star to a 'New Metal' mounted part to try and deceive others.

It is all to easy to go down the conspiricy route when the facts are not known. However, I always prefer to take the most obvious reason in all this and to me is that the factory used up spare A/A stars and mated them with the 'New Metal' mounted part with friction fit pegs (rivets as some call them but they are not rivets but integral to the mounted piece) in different positions to the previous non 'Queen's Own' scrolled mount. The pegs don't match as both parts were designed at different times hence the hack to make them fit.

When the A/A stars were all used up the 'New Metal' star piece was manufactured and matched the 'New Metal' mounted part creating the 100% modern version.

Either that or the 'New Metal' star was not available at the same time as the mounted 'New Metal' part so the pool of A/A stars was raided before the 'New Metal' star was manufactured.

In effect, both the A/A hybrid item and the more modern 'New Metal' item are officially manufactured pieces.

Regards,

Chris

[Paddy]

[QUOTE=hagwalther;368886]Hi Guys,

Either that or the 'New Metal' star was not available at the same time as the mounted 'New Metal' part so the pool of A/A stars was raided before the 'New Metal' star was manufactured.


Chris

Or the regiment had the front piece locally manufactured in Hong Kong and fitted them to their existing stock of AA GTR badges (which would no longer be required) before full Modern Metal badges became available - Just a thought but ties in with what Mike has said.

Paddy

[hagwalther]

[QUOTE=Paddy;368890]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Guys,

Either that or the 'New Metal' star was not available at the same time as the mounted 'New Metal' part so the pool of A/A stars was raided before the 'New Metal' star was manufactured.


Chris

Or the regiment had the front piece locally manufactured in Hong Kong and fitted them to their existing stock of AA GTR badges (which would no longer be required) before full Modern Metal badges became available - Just a thought but ties in with what Mike has said.

Paddy

Agree Paddy.

The existing A/A non-Queen's Own badges were stripped down causing the damage that can be seen in your badge and the 'New Metal' mounted piece added to the old badge's A/A star. This could even have been done at the factory.

Reason - dunno but may have been a rush for a new regiment parade, rename or similar and that was the solution.

Regards,

Chris

[bess55]

Gents,

In my opinion these badges present in a poor condition. I would very much doubt that they came from any recognised badge factory in the condition that they present - which is lets face it pretty butchered and crude. Do we really accept that Gaunt would have sent out these badges in this condition having ripped anodised GTR front pieces off? (no matter how hastily they were required).

Quite why the fronts on a brand new badge would be made and not the stars to attach them to is an odd one also. Why would a factory have one piece made in sufficient numbers and not the other part? Doesn't make sense. They are not a true factory produced hybrid (either be design or short term measure) as the quality is poor. They cannot be compared to the Highland Bde/band badges in quality or presentation at all.

Incidentally the fronts appear to be made from the material of the earliest new metal type badges, i.e. a very yellow looking gold colour which did appear to rub away fairly easily. The fronts appear to be of this type.

They can be compared as I stated above to a workshop produced hybrid like the MSO badges on the anodised RCT star.

Now who and why they were made is anyone's guess. It could be for completely valid regimental/operational reasons. The full badge is heavy, so perhaps by grafting the front onto an old GTR star made it lighter and therefore slightly more comfortable for the wearer on a beret . . . . who knows.

My observation makes no real assumption that they were made to deceive necessarily, but they were clearly made by someone and not . . . lets face it . . . a proper factory. Locally made overseas to fill a shortfall perhaps, but not to any great standard.

Regards all

Bess

[54Bty]

This is an all metal version of the QOGTR that was made in the unit.

Marc

[Mike H]

Thanks Marc, a decent bit of surgery rather than as Bess said "butchery" .

Theres an all metal example on e..y at present from a reputable guy that ive dealt with before, slider marked Firmin England.
It is still my contention that no matter what is said that the Gaunt Bham mark is wrong to the badge.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

This is an all metal version of the QOGTR that was made in the unit.

Marc

Hi Marc,

Wow - never seen a 'J R Gaunt B'HAM' mark like that before!

Looks like the 'UNT' of GAUNT is joined up at the middle. Also, the 'B' in B'HAM looks like a 'D'.

Marc, do you know when the badge was made and where did they get the 'star' part from with the Gaunt marking?

Also, does your star and mounted parts have shear marks on the sides? Will need a magnifying glass to check this.

Also, can you see two little round die flaws (in the positive) on the top of the slider to its left and very close to where it joins onto the rear of the star? Might need a x20 loop to see this but you may see it with a magnifier.

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by bess55

Gents,

In my opinion these badges present in a poor condition.

Bess

Not at all - the example in my book on page 283 is quite good and while not as good as the Gurkha Transport Regiment shown above it is not 'butchery' by any means.

Regards,

Chris

[gurkharifles]

I thought I'd just show these to add to the confusion/argument. The badge on the left is a rather fine heavy bi-metal badge made by FIRMIN LONDON. The badge on the right is something I've never been entirely sure about - two part construction but all white metal slightly cruder and made by GAUNT B'HAM.

Tim

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by gurkharifles

I thought I'd just show these to add to the confusion/argument. The badge on the left is a rather fine heavy bi-metal badge made by FIRMIN LONDON. The badge on the right is something I've never been entirely sure about - two part construction but all white metal slightly cruder and made by GAUNT B'HAM.

Tim

The Gaunt all 'New Metal' item looks like it has both cast parts - well mine does. I'm asking 54BTY to confirm his. In effect my particular example, at least, was not from a usual MoD contractor as both A/A and modern badges are cut from sheet metal via dies - cold die forging if I remember from my book and not die cast (both parts of the badge) as mine and Marc's appear to be.

I'm going back to basics and checking out authorisation dates with Army Dress Committee and COSA of 1993. COSA gives metal type in description which has (COSA) to date been very accurate but could be wrong. However, both bits of documentation proves that the QOGTR cap badge was authorised for issue and there is no getting away from that. The unit obviously did exist from 1993 to 2001 so it would be pretty hard to believe that badges for the QOGTR were never made for them during an eight year period.

Looking at:

http://www.gurkhabde.com/queens-own-...58th-birthday/

we see that the QOGTR was only ever at 2x squadron strength so the amount of badges required would be small. If the new regiment commissioned their own via local markets or knocked up others partly from existing parts then there may not have been an official bulk order for manufacture hence the rough examples we see today. However, I do note the FIRMIN example just posted by Tim so Firmin may well have been involved.

The issue is then, who made the Gaunt pieces (if not Gaunt) and how were the component parts sourced?

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by gurkharifles

I thought I'd just show these to add to the confusion/argument. The badge on the left is a rather fine heavy bi-metal badge made by FIRMIN LONDON. The badge on the right is something I've never been entirely sure about - two part construction but all white metal slightly cruder and made by GAUNT B'HAM.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Can you confirm (or not) if the obverse side of mounted item on the Firmin and Gaunt badges are one and the same?

I suspect they are different and also that the Firmin piece has shear marks to the edges but just need to confirm this.

Regards,

Chris

[bess55]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Not at all - the example in my book on page 283 is quite good and while not as good as the Gurkha Transport Regiment shown above it is not 'butchery' by any means.

Regards,

Chris

Of course its in poor condition, the book photo shows it and I have handled it. Look at it, compare the rear to the GTR shown above it on page 283. This is what one would expect to see on an authorised manufactured cap badge, be it anodised aluminium or any thing else. There is no comparison. This badge did not come from a production factory in any recognised way we know . . . . its pretty obvious isn't it? Its two unmatched, differing materials, fused together to create a hybrid.

By who, why and when is unknown for sure it would seem.

Whilst we can debate the term 'butchery' all day long, craftsmanship it isn't.

Regards all

Bess

[bess55]

Originally Posted by gurkharifles

I thought I'd just show these to add to the confusion/argument. The badge on the left is a rather fine heavy bi-metal badge made by FIRMIN LONDON. The badge on the right is something I've never been entirely sure about - two part construction but all white metal slightly cruder and made by GAUNT B'HAM.

Tim

Hi Tim,
by being unsure about the badge on the right, do you think its a bit suspect?

Regards

Bess

[Mike H]

The Gaunt Bham stamp on Tims version is horrible. Sorry Tim.
Looks like Gauhnt

[Paddy]

All I seem to be doing is adding pictures into the mix, this time front and back pics of the Firmin Modern Metal QOGTR badge I have. Different maker's mark to the other Firmin version shown and 6 fitting posts instead of 4.

Paddy