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  #16  
Old 26-12-12, 06:37 PM
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Milmed Milmed is offline
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Hi,
I have tended to use the term NCO loosely for all ranks other than Officers, but I am refering to OR's.

As for the variations I have seen:

RAMC collars.
1. QVC officers silver/gilt (Full dress)
2. QVC OR's gilding metal
3. KC (RAMC) officers silver/gilt (Full dress)
4. KC (RAMC) officers bronze (service dress) - size as cap badge
5. KC (RAMC) officers bronze (service dress) - smaller size
6. KC (RAMC) OR's gilding metal
7. KC (In Arduis Fedelis) officers silver/gilt
8. KC (In Arduis Fedelis) OR's bi-metal (scroll in white metal)
9. QIIC officers silver/gilt (also worn by warrant officers)
10. QIIC OR's bi-metal (scroll in white metal)
11. QIIC OR's anodised with non-silvered snake
12. QIIC OR's anodised with silvered snake

Volunteer Medical Staff Corps.
1. QVC OR's white metal with scroll 'VOLR MEDICAL STAFF CORPS'
2. QVC OR's white metal with scroll 'VOLUNTEER MEDICAL STAFF CORPS'

RAMC(V) collars.
1. KC officers silvered (without extra tablet)
2. KC OR's white metal with extra tablet (VOLs)

Then there are also Militia Medical Staff Corps QVC gilding metal collars, and earlier MSC collars with garter and red cross in gilding metal and white metal.

And also various bearer companies collar badges.

Regards
Steven
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  #17  
Old 29-12-12, 04:21 PM
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What is this then? Die cast with blades, separate silver scroll, traces of gilding on the reverse, including the serpent. No traces of silver on the serpent, which leads me to believe it originally came with gilding on everything but the scroll.

Rgds,

Thomas.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RAMC 1.jpg (88.8 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg RAMC 2.jpg (72.3 KB, 27 views)
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  #18  
Old 30-12-12, 02:11 PM
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Milmed Milmed is offline
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Hi Thomas,
Thanks for posting this badge. It is very difficult to tell with your badge.
I think I need some questions anwsered about the badge and then list some of my thoughts based on insignia in my collection.

Questions:
1. What is the size. Is it a collar badge size or cap badge size.
2. the mark on the reverse of the crown. Is it recessed or a raised mark like a moulding mark?

Observations of your badge:
1. Gilding metal/gilt portion appears to be cast and not stamped out.
2. Appears to be an officers silver/gilt badge
3. Blades on a silver/gilt badge is rather unusual. All ones I have seen have looped lugs.

Observations on examples I have:
1. Officers silver gilt cap badges appear to have the snake either painted/coated in silver OR as a separately attached silvererd snake.
2. Officers silver/gilt collar badges always appear to have snake painted/coated in silver.
3. I do have a similar badge without silvered snake but it has an attached silver scroll with latin scroll "In Arduis Fidelis"

Thoughts:
1. This may be an incomplete manufactured badge (Silver snake not painted or attached).
2. May be an Indian manufactured badge (from the look of it been cast and having non-regulation attachments) and therefore the missing silver on the snake.

Sorry i am unable to give a more definitive answer.

Steven
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  #19  
Old 30-12-12, 06:37 PM
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Thanks Steven.

Questions:
1. The badge measures 42,5 x 31,5 mm, which to me suggests cap badge size.
2. The reverse of the crown is a casting recess.

Observations of your badge:
1. it is.
2 I agree.
3. The blades look brazed on, usually they look as if stuck into the cast, so perhaps this one might have had lugs?

Observations on examples I have:
1. Yes, there are no traces of a separate silver serpent ever having been attached. Also the casting of the serpent is highly detailed, which I doubt would have been done when a separate serpent would have been attached on top of it.
2. Yes.
3. That would have been a later badge. Introduced in 1948 according to Hodges.

Thoughts:
1. Doubt it, see above, also there are traces of gilding on the reverse of the snake.
2. The overall quality is much too nice to have been made in India. the obverse is extremely detailed, the reverse is perfectly smooth apart from the casting recesses in the crown and serpent.

The badge came with a dull cherry leather(!) backing, which first came into use circa 1947-1948 according to Audax, Hodges has 1956.

My impression is that it is a high quality British made officers cap badge with gilt serpent, rod, wreath and crown and an overlaid silvered scroll.

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #20  
Old 31-12-12, 06:29 AM
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Milmed Milmed is offline
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Hi Thomas,
Thanks for your replies to my questions and observations. It seems this badge may be an enigma.

My thoughts at present sway towards a senior NCO or warrant officer, as the badge is similar to an Officers badge, but not all the way there. Could it be that the manufacturer of this particular badge was taking a 'short cut' to save on costs.

Seems there is more questions here than answers.
Regards
Steven
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  #21  
Old 31-12-12, 01:31 PM
Silver Tourist Silver Tourist is offline
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Default Royal Army Medical Corps. Hallmarked 1909-10.

Good afternoon.
The badge is also to be found in hallmarked silver bearing the sponsor`s mark for Jennen & Co, assayed in Birmingham 1909-10. Generally as KK 1007. Size: 32x24mm. Loops east & west with, on my example, an additional lion passant assay mark to each loop. Loops approx. 9mm long.

Whether, at that size, it is a cap or collar, I leave to others to debate.

Enjoy.

S.T.
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  #22  
Old 31-12-12, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milmed View Post
My thoughts at present sway towards a senior NCO or warrant officer, as the badge is similar to an Officers badge, but not all the way there. Could it be that the manufacturer of this particular badge was taking a 'short cut' to save on costs.
I've never heard of different badges for NCO's or warrant officers but exact info on the development of the RAMC badge is scarce compared to most other services.
Has anyone got any RAMC badge relevant AO's or ACI's?

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #23  
Old 31-12-12, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Tourist View Post
Good afternoon.
The badge is also to be found in hallmarked silver bearing the sponsor`s mark for Jennen & Co, assayed in Birmingham 1909-10. Generally as KK 1007. Size: 32x24mm. Loops east & west with, on my example, an additional lion passant assay mark to each loop. Loops approx. 9mm long.

Whether, at that size, it is a cap or collar, I leave to others to debate.

Enjoy.

S.T.
I would hazard a guess at a Volunteers officer collar badge.

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #24  
Old 06-12-13, 10:19 PM
Feray Feray is offline
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Default Collar dogs ramc

The reason for the snakes facing different directions is that they were worn with the snakes facing inwards.

Regards

Mac
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  #25  
Old 08-12-13, 11:07 AM
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Default RAMC collars

Info from my records submitted for information.
Stephen.
= = =

18.02.1902. Badges Collar Officers (appeared brass) with non-facing serpent sealed.
1936. Reduced size collar badges introduced.

07.12.62. Prototype anodised collar badges supplied for Sealed Pattern.
21.12.63. Collar badge OR’s with gilt serpent sealed.
10.01.64. Prototype anodised cap badge supplied (Cat CB 3131) to supersede pattern 16237 CB 1866.
20.06.68. RAMC request a revised anodised cap badge, having the rod and scroll in silver, with wreath and laurel in gold.
09.10.68. At the 188th Meeting of the ADC, the Committee inspected and approved finished samples of modified pattern of cap badge, and of the modified pattern of collar badge, both in gold & silver AA, for wear by soldiers of RAMC in place of
Badge, Organisation, RAMC, Cap- CB 3131.
Badge, Organisation, RAMC, Collar- CB 8455-99-973-9704.
The following patterns declared obsolete: CB 3131; CB 1866; CB 3516; CB 1867.
24.10.68. Mention of new two colour RAMC cap and collar badges having been received by Q(C&GS)1c following their approval by the Army Dress Committee.
Badges organisation AA RAMC Collar pair. Pattern 19985. Cat 8455-99-122-4095. Approved 12/11/68. Sealed pattern card indicates use by JR Gaunt 29.01.80., and by Smith & Wright 05.11.82. Described as a facing pair (serpents face towards each other). Gold with silver serpents and Latin scroll.
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  #26  
Old 08-12-13, 04:41 PM
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Thank you Stephen, most useful.

Rgds, Thomas.
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