ORIGINAL?? MCG Badge or.....

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Didnt someone mention Edwards and Langley 23A earlier ?

P.B.

Peter,
yes you did but not having a copy I'm none the wiser? Any chance of a scan or reference to what it shows?

Best regards

Andy

[2747andy]

Simon,
I'm more than happy to accept Toby's reference to them being arm badges, although I am also sure that many that are doing the rounds are modern productions, particularly the slidered examples! I think the 50/50 is Arm Badge/Copy as IMO the large crowned badge shown at the start of this thread is certainly not a SoM Cap Badge.

Andy

[LONGSHANKS]

Yes, I agree Andy. It would be nice to locate one with some sort of pedigree to get an idea on construction and detail.

Simon.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

Yes, I agree Andy. It would be nice to locate one with some sort of pedigree to get an idea on construction and detail.

Simon.

Simon,
I've got a genuine one somewhere, finding it is proving a problem! Once located I'll post an image!

Andy

[Alan O]

I think we have 100% agreement that is is not a hat badge but the question is then whether we can agree that is an arm badge or not. I suspect the repro accusation is from an ignornance of the existance of an arm badge and the assumption that it is a fake because it is not the dimensions for a hat badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

seems it's a 50/50 split on being a good one then.

I think it's a good one and I saw several in the museum during my time in the SASC, but it's not a cap badge.

The badges were also issued in worsted and bullion and interestingly the previous pattern depicted the 3-band Enfield rifle with slings fitted.

As well as Army instructors the badges were also worn by instructors (many ex military) within armed constabularies, the most famous of which was perhaps the Royal Irish Constabulary, although South Africa also featured strongly. As a result quite a few of these badges were made.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think you will find they are arm badges worn above the rank for men qualified as Serjeants of Musketry. These were at one time the most prestigious positions in each infantry and cavalry unit. They ranked as First Class Staff Serjeants at that time (before 1915) and were marked out by the badge shown of a one piece large crown and crossed rifles surmounting 3 chevrons. This is why they do not have sliders, in that they were worn rather like cavalry arm badges.

There was also a junior officer in each unit at RHQ level who had to be so qualified and who the 'Staff Serjeant' was there to assist. In many ways they equated to today's training officer and training warrant officer. They tend to be overlooked and yet at one time were a linchpin in each and every unit and were trained at School's of Musketry that existed right across the Empire. At one point there were two such schools in Britain, three in India (one for each Presidency), one in Canada, one in South Africa, one in New Zealand and one in Australia. Most of these schools still exist as schools of infantry, although those in India moved location in some cases after partition. They were once all linked and part of a large empire of musketry instruction that played no small part in the pre-eminence of the British and Commonwealth expeditionary forces of WW1.

This from memory: I think the appointment c. 1900 was "Colour-sergeant Instructor in Musketry" That being so, we have a little badging problem in both full dress and SD, do we not?
I am away from my references, but if the appointment badge had a crown intrinsic to it, we would have an odd looking crown over a crown in SD and in full dress. I can't say I've had the thought before!

I would add that the C-Sgt I of M was [with the Bandmaster] to stay at Home on Mobilisation, underlining the importance of the role.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

This from memory: I think the appointment c. 1900 was "Colour-sergeant Instructor in Musketry" That being so, we have a little badging problem in both full dress and SD, do we not?
I am away from my references, but if the appointment badge had a crown intrinsic to it, we would have an odd looking crown over a crown in SD and in full dress. I can't say I've had the thought before!

I would add that the C-Sgt I of M was [with the Bandmaster] to stay at Home on Mobilisation, underlining the importance of the role.

Whether his rank was a Colour Sergeant or not the 'appointment' was unchanged as 'Sergeant Instructor of Musketry'. See certificate above.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Whether his rank was a Colour Sergeant or not the 'appointment' was unchanged as 'Sergeant Instructor of Musketry'. See certificate above.

Yes, that is what Establishments call him, but my Standing Orders:

1st RWF 1910
2nd RWF 1912
A&SH both battalions 1912 refer to 'The Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry' [in each case responsible to the Assistant Adjt who himself was required to hold the School certificate].

So the badge conundrum, only to be solved at this remove by a photo, I suspect, is real enough, regardless of the name of the appointment. I don't have access to my photo archive at the moment, but from memory have never seen the double crown that is implied, as I referred to above.

My guess would be that the probable solution was to wear the one crown over a pair of rifles BUT such a photo does not help as he could be only a sergeant. Oh well!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Yes, that is what Establishments call him, but my Standing Orders:

1st RWF 1910
2nd RWF 1912
A&SH both battalions 1912 refer to 'The Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry' [in each case responsible to the Assistant Adjt who himself was required to hold the School certificate].

So the badge conundrum, only to be solved at this remove by a photo, I suspect, is real enough, regardless of the name of the appointment. I don't have access to my photo archive at the moment, but from memory have never seen the double crown that is implied, as I referred to above.

My guess would be that the probable solution was to wear the one crown over a pair of rifles BUT such a photo does not help as he could be only a sergeant. Oh well!

The double crown was worn, by both cavalry and infantry (I have seen photos - most recently in the book on cavalry arm badges), although it seems to have been discontinued (by utilising just the crossed rifles, without conjoined crown) sometime between the two wars. Presumably there will be a LofC about it somewhere.

[grumpy]

have't got Cavalry Estabs in sufficient detail in the relevant period to see if a SSMIM existed on their books, but is eminently possible given the emphasis on cavalry shooting post-1902.

Linaker and Dine show ills. of double crown on a SSMIF&G but the crossed swords are used, and the appointment badge has the smaller crown , the rank the larger. They translate the abbreviation as Squadron sergeant-major instructor fencing and gymnastics, c. 1907, full dress. Reading from bottom, three chevrons, regimental badge, crossed swords, small crown, large crown.

Now we are on the subject, I shall keep an eye open for a CSgtIM similarly adorned.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

have't got Cavalry Estabs in sufficient detail in the relevant period to see if a SSMIM existed on their books, but is eminently possible given the emphasis on cavalry shooting post-1902.

Linaker and Dine show ills. of double crown on a SSMIF&G but the crossed swords are used, and the appointment badge has the smaller crown , the rank the larger. They translate the abbreviation as Squadron sergeant-major instructor fencing and gymnastics, c. 1907, full dress. Reading from bottom, three chevrons, regimental badge, crossed swords, small crown, large crown.

Now we are on the subject, I shall keep an eye open for a CSgtIM similarly adorned.

The SIM was added to the cavalry establishment in 1861 as a second class staff serjeant (but dressed as first class) and pre-dates both the SIF&G and Bdmr Sjt by a few years. In 1904 he was retitled as SSMIM, at the same time as the infantry SIM became CSjtIM (AO/104/1904 June). After 1904 the SSMIM is shown in cavalry establishments, usually in the MG troop.

As CSjts already wore the large crown as part of their rank I should think that it was at that point that they started to wear just the conjoined crossed rifles above 3 chevrons to mark their rank and not two crowns, although I suppose it is possible that they wore a smaller crowned crossed rifles for a period, as shown in the enclosed illustration.

It is notable however, that the CSjtIG (later IPT) wore just the crossed sabres before 1915 which would seem to suggest that the CSjtIM probably had just crossed rifles by that time too.

[grumpy]

hank you .... an interesting little by-way!