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  #1  
Old 29-09-19, 04:17 PM
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Default Union Jack

Here is something that is probably very common in the UK, but not so much in Laramie, Wyoming! I'm hoping that someone can provide some information about this wonderful old flag. It appears to be made of pieces of coarse wool sewn together, and has numerous repairs and small holes. It measures approximately 53" x 24" without stretching. I'm wondering about how old it is and whether it is the type you would find flying in a schoolyard, or on a boat, or maybe in an Army camp...
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  #2  
Old 29-09-19, 05:39 PM
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generally, military issue flags have issue markings on them. multi-part construction is good as is the coarse fabric, it appears therefore to have some age, but they can be hard to narrow down to a tight time frame.
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  #3  
Old 29-09-19, 05:47 PM
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the union flag should not be flown on a boat except by specific allowed groups, it should only be flown on land and modern rules allow anyone to fly it at anytime.
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  #4  
Old 29-09-19, 07:59 PM
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Coffin
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  #5  
Old 30-09-19, 12:04 AM
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Default Union Flag

Dobw , That’s a beautifully made flag but unless you know an expert in materials and style of production, it would be very difficult to pin an age on it. That design of the Union flag dates to January 1801 after the act of Union1800 when Ireland joined the union and therefore the addition of the cross (or Saltire) of Saint Patrick being added to the flag. Best regards, D.J.
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Old 30-09-19, 04:15 PM
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A purpose made coffin drape tends to be larger at 8'x5' [96" x 75"] (240cm x 150cm) with no rope & toggle.

What Artynut means is the design was adopted in January 1801 and is currant to present date.

Type of manufacture of your flag is called stitched Wool Bunting and was very common for almost all UK produced flags up to the early 70's when stitched Polyester tended to take over.

Top loop normally had a wooden dwell to fix to top loop on flag post rope to ensure flying the right way..
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Old 30-09-19, 07:11 PM
Jim Maclean Jim Maclean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBBOND View Post
the union flag should not be flown on a boat except by specific allowed groups, it should only be flown on land and modern rules allow anyone to fly it at anytime.
Often one of the ensigns is flown by visiting vessels as a courtesy flag, this is incorrect.

The correct courtesy flag for foreign vessels visiting the UK is the Union flag.
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Old 30-09-19, 07:21 PM
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Default Union Jack and White Ensign

This post gave me a reason to dig up my Union Jack and White Ensign.

I am no expert on flags and am just throwing this out there for comment.

These two flags came together and I was told at the time they came from the HMCS Ottawa on which the fellow that gave them to me said his dad served.

There have been four HMCS Ottawas (one C-Class destroyer sunk in 1942, another G-Class destroyer 1943-45, a third St Laurent Class destroyer 1956-92 and finally a Halifax Class frigate commissioned in 1996).

It appears that the White Ensign was flown on Canadian Navy ships until 1965 and (according to Wikipedia) the Union Jack was not used after 1911.
So, if the pair actually originated together it would put them most likely in the 1943 to 1965 period. I would have a hard time putting my friend’s dad onto a Second World War ship although I never met him.

Both these flags are in the wrinkly 65” x 33” range.

The Union Jack has a maker’s mark which I can’t read except for the Made in Canada and I believe an anchor.

Both flags have something written on them.

The White Ensign I believe would have been flown while the ship was at sea and therefore the attachment devices are quite sturdy and the Union Jack would be used in port??? or on special occasions and are not quite as sturdy.

Please, feel free to correct me as I said I’m no expert.
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  #9  
Old 30-09-19, 08:16 PM
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Your White Ensign seems to have Inglefield clips (also known as a sister clip or Brummel hook and is a clip for joining a flag or ensign quickly, easily and securely to flag halyards so that the flag can be hoisted. They are also used for jib sheets on small boats and to connect the speed line in paragliders.

Each clip resembles a link of chain, with a split through one side. The edges of this split are chamfered, so that the clips can be engaged or disengaged, but only if they are carefully aligned by hand. When pulled tight, the links are securely fastened. There are no moving parts to the link, although some have additional swivel pieces.

They can be made of any durable material; commonly brass, bronze, stainless steel or plastic. The clips come in two basic types: 'standard' with the halyard attached directly to the clip, and 'swivel' which incorporates a rotational connector so that the halyard can rotate without affecting the flag.

However the top clip seems to be a replacement?



In the Royal Navy a flag or ensign normally has both types of clip, one at each end of the heading. Some flags have the top clip sewn directly onto the heading rather than a rope running through it. This allows these flags to be flown 'tight-up' against the top of the mast, gaff or yard arm.


Example of Inglefield clips, from a Royal Navy handbook dated 1943
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  #10  
Old 30-09-19, 08:21 PM
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Thank you, gentlemen, for your comments and information. This has turned into a fascinating learning experience for me. For instance, I never realized it was possible to display a union flag upside-down! My example seems to be narrower than a standard flag, and I'm wondering if that provides any clue as to its original purpose?
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  #11  
Old 03-10-19, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDEV View Post
This post gave me a reason to dig up my Union Jack and White Ensign.

I am no expert on flags and am just throwing this out there for comment.

These two flags came together and I was told at the time they came from the HMCS Ottawa on which the fellow that gave them to me said his dad served.

There have been four HMCS Ottawas (one C-Class destroyer sunk in 1942, another G-Class destroyer 1943-45, a third St Laurent Class destroyer 1956-92 and finally a Halifax Class frigate commissioned in 1996).

It appears that the White Ensign was flown on Canadian Navy ships until 1965 and (according to Wikipedia) the Union Jack was not used after 1911.
So, if the pair actually originated together it would put them most likely in the 1943 to 1965 period. I would have a hard time putting my friend’s dad onto a Second World War ship although I never met him.

Both these flags are in the wrinkly 65” x 33” range.

The Union Jack has a maker’s mark which I can’t read except for the Made in Canada and I believe an anchor.

Both flags have something written on them.

The White Ensign I believe would have been flown while the ship was at sea and therefore the attachment devices are quite sturdy and the Union Jack would be used in port??? or on special occasions and are not quite as sturdy.

Please, feel free to correct me as I said I’m no expert.
your white ensign has the correct construction for WWII period examples, with the horizontal lines running through the white parts, though I do not know when this type was introduced or when it went out of production, a bit vague but....certainly fits into the time frame you listed
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