Liverpool Pals?

[JON188]

Gents,
I am expecting the following 4 badges to come through and just thought id run by the only photos i currently have for opinions.
Many thanks
JonLiverpool Pals front.jpg

Liverpool Pals rear.jpg

Liverpool Pals Silver.JPG

[High Wood]

I seem to remember reading that they should have lugs and not sliders. The hall marked silver one is one of the original badges given out to the first 1,000 men by Lord Derby or his wife.

[2747andy]

Jon,
They look promising from the images, obviously an OSD and a silver example as already pointed out! Whilst the early ORs badges were lugged the later badges were slidered and of far less impressive quality, but nevertheless genuine.

Andy

[magpie]

I thought the silver badges were for anyone signing up not just the first 1,000, I had for one for someone who didn't go untill early summer 1916 and then only as a replacement a month after the Somme had started and not into a pals battalion then moved to the mgc a few weeks later.

[KLR]

Your silver one is assayed in London, more common than the Chester version, but at least you have the original loops - most were replaced by brooch fittings.
It's a pity about the OSD - does it have a makers name ?
Both the ORs badges should have a dark brown (bronze) patina - but they are often found with this worn away or rubbed off.
The solid back with loops is Pattern 8520/1915 authorised in autumn 1915. This was superseded by the badge with a slider which was authorised in May 1917 as Pattern 9483/1917. The badges were declared obsolete in August 1921.

[2747andy]

Julian,
Many of the later die struck slidered badges often appear with no trace of bronzing, rather than it being worn away! Do you think towards the end of their lifespan they were manufactured this way?

Andy

[KLR]

The original authorisation of 1917 specifies bronzing but yes, I've thought that with time they didn't bother. It would speed up production.

[Frank Kelley]

Those look nice, whilst it was a local regiment, it was one that I could never really get interested in and yet when I got my first badges as a boy, I do remember thinking that I'd got something really special, in particular the OSD and Silver badges.
I am very pleased for you and I hope you find them as special as I did.

Originally Posted by JON188

Gents,
I am expecting the following 4 badges to come through and just thought id run by the only photos i currently have for opinions.
Many thanks
JonAttachment 143312

Attachment 143313

Attachment 143314

[Frank Kelley]

I think you mean "and his wife" actually his daughter too and certainly rather more than just one thousand!

Originally Posted by High Wood

I seem to remember reading that they should have lugs and not sliders. The hall marked silver one is one of the original badges given out to the first 1,000 men by Lord Derby or his wife.

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I think you mean "and his wife" actually his daughter too and certainly rather more than just one thousand!

You are indeed right but I was posting at a quarter to midnight (way past my bedtime) without using a reference book.

[Frank Kelley]

I wouldn't know, I'm afraid I am normally in bed by then, nor was I using a book, but, simply recalling in my mind, the famous photographs than I remembered seeing nearly thirty years or so ago!
Jon's badges certainly appear to be very nice!

[JON188]

I will withhold my joy until they are in my possession. The pesky mail service may think it's April 1st and lose the package!
Regards
Jon

[High Wood]

John Gaylor states that 'all volunteers who joined before 16th October 1914 received the badge in silver as his personal gift but later issues were in brass'. I don't recall where I read the figure of a thousand being issued.

[Peter Brydon]

In his book "The Liverpool Pals" the late Graham Maddocks mentions Lt.Col Stanley ( Lord Derbys brother ) travelling to Prescot, Hooton Park and Sefton Park to tell the 3 ( as they were then ) battalions that the King had approved the wearing of the Stanley crest as their badge and that Lord derby had " claimed the privilege to present each recruit with a solid silver version of the badge....."

So without having a precise number for the hall marked silver badges, it may well have been 3,000 or more.

Frank, your memory serves you well, again in the Maddocks book, the caption to the photo of the silver Pals badges being presented says "..........Lady Victoria Stanley gives each badge to her mother, Lady Derby who then hands it to Lord Derby for presentation........ "

P.B.

[Mike B]

A lovely badge in design and form. You have some excellent examples there Jon - I appreciate such items and learn a great deal through the expertise shared on this forum.

As a matter of pure interest - I believe the Silver ones may be hallmarked London or Chester - please correct me if I am wrong. Is there any significance in this to distinguish between City Battalion locations? Are there any Birmingham hallmarked ones?

Just being inquisitive.

Regards

Mike