LRDG Badge

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Jack8

Thanks for the advice. Not sure why the one collector can't defend the badge you bought though, or why the other should be laughing his head off instead of commenting, I'm obviously missing something

Jack, from my point of view there are only two go to guys I use when it comes to LRDG badges with provenance to LRDG vets, one is Craig H who sold me my badge, and the other is the seller of the auction that started this thread.

Brent

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Jack, from my point of view there are only two go to guys I use when it comes to LRDG badges with provenance to LRDG vets, one is Craig H who sold me my badge, and the other is the seller of the auction that started this thread.

Brent

Thanks Brent, I should have made the connection between the seller ricobrennan and Kiwi ric., silly me, wish someone had told me sooner.

That puts this badge in a new perspective for me now. WW2 is not mentioned though, but I guess that's obvious. I'll have to contact him and ask about a guarantee like the other chap gives.

Jack

[atillathenunns]

The following badge is from the personal collection of General Lloyd Owen, it appears from the photos that I have, the badge is die stamped, but interestingly it has solid LRDG letters.

[Kiwi ric]

Hello chaps, great discussion. and its one I have had with many people over this style of badge.

Poski your points and research is very valid and as I know your a very keen collector of LRDG items and have done loads of research as well.

Mr Nuns :P well we have chatted on the phone loads of times and emails regarding this type of badge also. that photo from the LO collection is a cracker and just points at more questions

my view over all the research I have done is well.. Heck I just don't know. I have seen this type of badge among other known @Correct badges in vet groupings and belongings. But have yet to talk to a living person who received this type of badge in person. The badge itself or style is very well made with great detail. not that copy badges cannot have these qualitys etc

The question on my mind would be. why copy this style of badge... why not if you were in the reproduction market. wax cast a typical struck LRDG badge and reproduce that. its not like its hard to do these days with our modern tech.

and I guess that leads to, the Assn badge thought, or a ver made wartime.

I found in this game with LRDG it pays to keep an open mind, and read and research as much as you can. because so much is just unknown

[atillathenunns]

Ric, it really is a small world when it comes to LRDG badges, imagine what the LRDG badge community could achieve if they put aside their egos and all shared their information, I reckon we could just about solve the LRDG badge enigma.
When you think about it, it is the fakers who have turned collecting LRDG badges into a minefield for new collectors, so what can we do as a badge community to combat the damage they have done?

My reckoning is that the Lloyd Owen touching tail LRDG badge is actually different from our touching tail badges that turn up in NZ collections, possibly the LO badge is the one that popskipa is referring to as an association badge, regardless without any actual evidence it is speculative at best.

Sadly I can’t share the full letter that has the following Lloyd Owen hand written note, but the badge in question is not only the most copied LRDG badge, it is copied from the LRDG Association badge that were made in the 1970s by Russell King.

[Kiwi ric]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Ric, it really is a small world when it comes to LRDG badges, imagine what the LRDG badge community could achieve if they put aside their egos and all shared their information, I reckon we could just about solve the LRDG badge enigma.
When you think about it, it is the fakers who have turned collecting LRDG badges into a minefield for new collectors, so what can we do as a badge community to combat the damage they have done?

My reckoning is that the Lloyd Owen touching tail LRDG badge is actually different from our touching tail badges that turn up in NZ collections, possibly the LO badge is the one that popskipa is referring to as an association badge, regardless without any actual evidence it is speculative at best.

Sadly I can’t share the full letter that has the following Lloyd Owen hand written note, but the badge in question is not only the most copied LRDG badge, it is copied from the LRDG Association badge that were made in the 1970s by Russell King.

Good post and good piccys your lucky to have been in contact with LDO etc.

Yes your right, there is a few people that hold the info they have close to heart etc. and it would be nice if more of it came out.

The assn badge that you talk about. is rather interesting. as even the Original assn badges made by Russel King, lack the detail that the badge this thread was started about.

so A: someone re designed a badge from scratch and based if on the assn badge. or B: the assn badge was based off the style of badge we are talking about on ebay.

its the chicken and the egg type deal. take a look at your typical assn style badge, and the badge style we are talking about.

Huge difference in Quality and design.

[atillathenunns]

Ric, the most obvious answer is the 1970s association badges are most definitely copied from our badges. In the last 10 years of research I have only seen a very small number of badges that are an exact match to mine turn up, most of which have been in private collections. The fakes on the other hand have flooded the market.

Sadly none of the LRDG touching leg doomsayers have the stones to enter our debate and defend their stance that all LRDG touching leg badges are fake, although I am sure there will most definitely be some Chinese whispers in private emails.

Here’s the link to my badge on the Wehrmacht Awards forum, it contains a bit of information on the ownership history of my badge and some extracts from Brendans book about LRDG badges. It also shows some close up angle photos of my badge.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=163686

When viewing my badge you can see it has been made from rolled brass sheet that has then been die stamped between a positive and negative die which has left a shallow hollow in the back of the scorpion that dips inwards from the legs, the badge is hand cut and lugs have been sweated on.
The interesting thing about rolled brass sheet is that it has had all the casting imperfections removed when it was rolled into a brass sheet, as such the back of your badge should be nice and smooth as mine, and any imperfections from the die would normally be expected in all badges produced from that die.

[pukman]

I'm afraid I can't add anything to the verification of LRDG badges or otherwise ,as it is a minefield I have skipped around .A very interesting unit and I hope you can all come up with definitive answers about what is authentic and what is not ,as big money is passed around for these badges of late ,and I hate to see collectors making a big mistake .

Here is one out of a collection .I'm wondering where it fits into the equation ?

Cheers Iain

[Jack8]

I agree with Ric's comment about why didn't the copiers copy the more usual LRDG badge in large number (I have seen a few really rough copies), all the abundant copies do seem to be of the touching tail type with voided letters and single wheel rim.

I also agree that the "original touching tail badges" seem to be of a much higher quality than the copies.

I am keeping an open mind on this subject from now on, I have yet to handle an "original touching tail badge" as I have never seen one in a fair or flea market etc. I have however seem and handled many of the abundant copies.

Jack

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Jack8

I agree with Ric's comment about why didn't the copiers copy the more usual LRDG badge in large number (I have seen a few really rough copies), all the abundant copies do seem to be of the touching tail type with voided letters and single wheel rim.

I also agree that the "original touching tail badges" seem to be of a much higher quality than the copies.

I am keeping an open mind on this subject from now on, I have yet to handle an "original touching tail badge" as I have never seen one in a fair or flea market etc. I have however seem and handled many of the abundant copies.

Jack

Jack, having an open mind allows for a much better understanding, die stamped badges like mine and the one in the collection of General Lloyd Owen are rare.

The following LRDG badge on the Imperial War Museums website commonly turns up and IMO and looks somewhat similar to my badge, perhaps this is the association LRDG badge that popskipa is referring to in the. — “discussion in the LRDG Association Newsletters, in the 1960s.”



http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30103122

Here is another LRDG badge on the Imperial War Museums website which looks very similar to the one I posted (Post #35).
The interesting thing is the LRDG touching leg doomsayers use the leg as the most obvious reason for denouncing these badges as copies, whereas General Lloyd Owen mentions nothing about the leg but instead refers to the. — “fancy work on the wheel”



http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30103121

Originally Posted by pukman

Here is one out of a collection .I'm wondering where it fits into the equation ?

Cheers Iain

I believe your badge is a very honest New Zealand LRDG association badge.

[atillathenunns]

The first LRDG badge on the Imperial War Museums website that I posted unfortunately did not show the reverse, however this one on the militarybadgecollection.com website looks like a close match.
The dent in the reverse IMO looks like the badge was cast and not die stamped like mine, it could be pure shear marks from a hydraulic press but unless someone has one to prove otherwise I'm leaning to cast..




http://militarybadgecollection.com/?...+Desert+Group+

[Overland]

One for the pot but unfortunately no history.

[NEMO]

HI , im following this thread with great interest , I could not state what is-or is not a real badge but would like to offer these two details I know of for sure .

A,

I used to own a copy of the LRDG unit history wrote by the Intelligence officer Kennedy Shaw, my copy was a very early post war print about 1946 -47 on the front was a beautiful embossed example of the LRDG cap badge ...........now presumably would they have used an original example to copy ??? which is a big if but this would be before copies, fakes or post war examples - thus if the example shown on the front of the book was the ` touching tail` example the type that is not popular would this be stronger evidence these badges are period ?? sorry its years ago and I never took much notice.

B,

in or about 1985 I was shown an LRDG Cap badge and autographed menu from a reunion party of the LRDG , this was owned by a well established UK collector now long since dead , he told me the badge was a post war copy that had been instituted on the instruction of the widow of one of the senior officers ( I dont know if he was killed in service or died post war )

How many were made or who by again I do not know BUT I DO remember it was for a 25 aniversery reunion ? either the units formation or the wars end but it was 25 years and the fact it was instituted by the widow I remember for certain .

I strongly believe that a good few of these official post war badges have turned up in that old cigar box of a veterans war time effects after his death along with original photos , LRDG slip ons , ab64 and thus by default have become ` original ` items .



........and boy am I gonna get slammed over this ........

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by NEMO

HI , im following this thread with great interest , I could not state what is-or is not a real badge but would like to offer these two details I know of for sure .

A,

I used to own a copy of the LRDG unit history wrote by the Intelligence officer Kennedy Shaw, my copy was a very early post war print about 1946 -47 on the front was a beautiful embossed example of the LRDG cap badge ...........now presumably would they have used an original example to copy ??? which is a big if but this would be before copies, fakes or post war examples - thus if the example shown on the front of the book was the ` touching tail` example the type that is not popular would this be stronger evidence these badges are period ?? sorry its years ago and I never took much notice.

B,

in or about 1985 I was shown an LRDG Cap badge and autographed menu from a reunion party of the LRDG , this was owned by a well established UK collector now long since dead , he told me the badge was a post war copy that had been instituted on the instruction of the widow of one of the senior officers ( I dont know if he was killed in service or died post war )

How many were made or who by again I do not know BUT I DO remember it was for a 25 aniversery reunion ? either the units formation or the wars end but it was 25 years and the fact it was instituted by the widow I remember for certain .

I strongly believe that a good few of these official post war badges have turned up in that old cigar box of a veterans war time effects after his death along with original photos , LRDG slip ons , ab64 and thus by default have become ` original ` items .



........and boy am I gonna get slammed over this ........

Hi Michael,

See this Amazon link;

http://www.amazon.com/Desert-Group-1.../dp/B004PZ4CR8

The badge on the dust cover looks to be the non touching tail type in my opinion.

Jack

[NEMO]

Well spotted sir , think that is the book bt my example did not have the dust cover just the blue cloth boards ( that can just be seen )the badge design was embossed deep in tothe cover but it wold have been the same badge design as on the front dust cover no reason to be other , well done