Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Shoulder Titles and Helmet Flashes

[Bill A]

That type of backing came into use in the 1990's. The titles may be CF dress titles. But they are not SWW.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Bill A

That type of backing came into use in the 1990's. The titles may be CF dress titles. But they are not SWW.

Hmm...on what uniform would "CF dress titles" be worn? I was under the impression that metal titles were worn in DEU and coloured titles (with swiss-embroidered edges) were worn on Garrison Dress? All the GD titles I've seen were done in "modern" materials, i.e. shiny (nylon) thread with the aforementioned edging.

There has been at least one very active contingent of Chaudière re-enactors in Canada, though this is not an accusation. I have no idea if they used original or replica insignia, just that their standards of authenticity were quite high and may present another avenue of thought to explore.

[Bill A]

I may be a bit off on the date. When the gold on green long style titles were acquired in the 80's for the CF uniform, several of the French-Canadian units adopted coloured titles. Some units wore the coloured title on the CF tunic in the 80's maybe into the early 90's. They were also worn on workdress. The coloured titles were also worn on the Garrison Dress. In most cases the coloured titles were the fully embroidered titles, but some units used the old battledress titles.

[Phillip Herring]

Don't forget the army cadet corps who were wearing the merrowed titles before Garrison Dress came in.

Phil

[Bill A]

Hi Phil, Yes, they were, and in many cases a previous trend was reversed. Many cadet corps had been given the regimental melton bd titles, and when the supply of these ran out they eventually acquired the fully embroidered merrowed edge titles. Several reserve regiments adopted these titles for the GD when it came into service.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Bill A

I may be a bit off on the date. When the gold on green long style titles were acquired in the 80's for the CF uniform, several of the French-Canadian units adopted coloured titles. Some units wore the coloured title on the CF tunic in the 80's maybe into the early 90's. They were also worn on workdress. The coloured titles were also worn on the Garrison Dress. In most cases the coloured titles were the fully embroidered titles, but some units used the old battledress titles.

Ok - that makes sense. FWIW, I traded my "CF Green" jacket for DEU in 1988, and being in Calgary I have to believe we were probably among the last to do so (seemed like everything was slow to come out west) - so when I read 1990s, I assumed "CF Dress" was referring to the DEU.

[rubicon]

Hello,

I've got this helmet recently from an old local collection in Normandy. Its former owner got it about 15 years ago and wrote to ask an identification to the museum at Levis in August 2000. In January 2001, he received a reply from Lcol G. Turgeon who was the Manager General at this time. A very interresting answer of 3 pages in French. M. Richard Martin who at this time was in charge of identifications in the regiment, found out the original owner of this helmet : Acting/Sgt K. BOUCHER army number D118214 a cook Class "B" RCASC, who was taken on strenght of the Regiment de la Chaudiere from 9 Canadian Infantry Brigade Workshop RCEME with effect from the 11 October 1944 when the regiment was engaged in the Poket of Breskens (From Services Orders n°92, 16 November 1944).

Sgt K. BOUCHER was struck off strenght of Regiment de la Chaudiere to X-3 List RCASC with effect from 28 January 1945.

I wonder why Sgt K. BOUCHER stayed so little time with the regiment? The chinstrap of the helmet seems to be stained with blood, so did Sgt K. BOUCHER was wounded and transfered later to another unit? Maybe the answer is in the X-3 List? Does somebody know what X-3 List meens?

Pages 2 and 3 of the letter are also very interresting as they explain the official origin of the regimental colours and wearing regulation on the helmet.
As it is write in French I'll do a translation later when I'll find a bit of free time to do it.

I hope this helmet will not bring any more polemic and feel free to comment and discuss about it as I'm not use to insult my contradictors!!!
J-F

[chaudiere1944]

Hi J.F.

The letters you posted from the Museum are absolutely awesome, thank you so kindly as it reinforces the other sources regarding the origins of the colours of the Helmet Flash.

I have attached the War Diary entries for the Regiment just before and after Acting/Sgt K. BOUCHER would have left them in January 1945 to see if he may have been mentioned as being wounded. The Regiment during this period appears to have been static and not engaged with the enemy. There is no mention of his name but there was a patrol on January 13, 1945 that mentions 4 Chaudière being wounded, if he was wounded it may have been there. Regardless, Acting/Sgt K. BOUCHER was only in the Regiment for a brief couple of months, you may want to see if you are able to retrieve from the Library of Archives Canada (LAC) his Service Record. On my next visit to the LAC I will look at some of the ancillary documents that exist in the War Diary that generally have the T.O.S. and S.O.S. entries to see if I can find him, if I find anything I will photograph and send along to you...I probably will not be there again for at least 6 months however.

The Helmet itself is an interesting example. The colours are correct but in a configuration I have not seen before, meaning the white band is in a completely vertical orientation rather than being on a 45 degree angle, and the red and maroon are reversed in their orientation. I have no explanation for this, except that assuming it is SWW period applied that perhaps there was an error on the part of Acting/Sgt K. BOUCHER when he applied the Helmet Flash paint. Again referencing his brief time with the Regiment this is a plausible explanation.

I am unfamiliar with the X-3 List...perhaps someone else may have some insight into this.

A little off topic...but I am making my first pilgrimage in 8 days to Normandy...I am staying at a hotel in Courseulles-sur-Mer and will be retracing my Grandfathers footsteps starting with when he landed on Bernieres-sur-Mer with the Chaudière. Anyone have any advice on good Militaria shops or other points of interest I could visit in the Normandy area?

Thanks again for posting the Letters J.F., this was/is very exciting for me to see!!!


Cheers,
Mike

[Bill A]

Pure speculation here. RCEME personnel were tradesmen with technical skills. But, in the fall of 1944 there was a desparate shortage infantry reinforcements, and especially Francophone reinforcements. Other corps were scoured for reinforcements, and many artillery, service corps, ordnance etc were redirected into the infantry reinforcement streams. French speaking personnel were espcially short, and this may have been the reason for his transfer to the infantry.

[servicepub]

The X List:

X1 - prisoner of war (P.O.W.)
X2 - detention
X3 - hosptial
X4 - reinforcement or reinforcement in transit
X5 - on course
X6 - missing
X7 - on loan
X8 - in transit
X9 & X10 - waiting return

From what I see, Boucher was a Cook (RCASC) but last served at a RCEME workshop. This doesn't mean that he was RCEME though as even Workshops need cooks. The "X-3" suggests that he was injured sufficiently to be sent to hospital. This could be a wound but more likely an occupational injury such as a burn.
The flash is completely out of line with the rest of the Regiment but aligns nicely with the standard used throughout other regiments and Corps. Can't figure out why an RCASC cook would add this to his helmet, especially long after these flashes had gone out of general usage and can only suspect that the Regiment de Chaudiere tried to be as inclusive as possible and Boucher truly felt a member of the regimental family. Not all regiments were as welcoming to attached personnel.
Clive

[rubicon]

Thanks you Mike, Clive and Bill for your help, your contributions makes things more clear about what happened to Sgt Boucher!
J-F

[chaudiere1944]

Here is a pair of Titles with a hefty price tag on them.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/251694799567?...84.m1423.l2649

The Seller reached out to me last month about these Titles and I advised him they were likely post war and that I had erred in an article I had written describing this as SWW vintage...see revised article here http://servicepub.wordpress.com/2013...diere-1939-45/

A single title resembling this type just sold for $10.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LE-REGIMENT-C...item1c47e9ef18

Personally, I have purchased this type in the past for between $10-25 so the Seller price tag is in the stratosphere...the only Title pair that I could see fetching this sum would be the original Canadian made Titles from 1941.

Mike

[Bill A]

Hi Mike. Unfortunately, despite showing individuals extensive evidence referencing the values of material, many still think they have won the 6-49 or Lotto Max with certain items they have acquired. One individual has listed and re-listed a generic Brit pattern Canada title on ebay. It started at approx $500 and is now after months of being relisted, down to around $50.

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Bill,

So true...I wonder how much these Picker shows and other sources have influenced people into believing their items are rare and therefore worth a fortune?

Here is a canvas title from the same Seller...another hefty price for a piece that traditionally sells between $100-150...in fact I believe you just parted with one on Mike R's Facebook forum for the $100, maybe you should have followed this guys strategy

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/251694794553?...84.m1423.l2649


By the way the description in this ad was essentially lifted from my article and the correspondence I had with him. At least in my article I give credit and reference to my sources for the info he posted...and that source of course would be Bill Alexander!


Mike

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

Hi Bill,

The first three pictures are on a display at the Chaudiere Museum depicting a D-Day Chaudiere Officer as he would have appeared. He is wearing the Embroidered Titles and not the Printed Canvas.

Best,
Mike

This is why I don't trust museum displays. The BD is clearly a Patt '47 so any SWW insignia on it will not be original to the tunic. This is compounded by the postwar shirt and tie
Clive