Royal Welsh Fusilers early bullion collars

[JerryBB]

Early type (pre 1881?) in lovely condition, with the beast with no loop in the tail and wide flames to the grenade.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Early type (pre 1881?) in lovely condition, with the beast with no loop in the tail and wide flames to the grenade.

Yes this is the 'Griffin' style with a beaked and feathered head and was the design used in 'Regimental Records' by J S FARMER, as the 'RED DRAGON of Wales' (but a different version, passant, is shown for the SWB and Welsh Regt). The later RWF version was a more true Dragon with conventional mouth and scaled head, but there is no clear record of when and why this changed.

I believe it probably is an early version but not as early as pre 1881, when a plain silver grenade, without ornament was used. Instead I think it is an early post 1881 version. The RWF had initially used a wide spread flame, but by the 1890s this had changed to the more elongated version that became the standard.

[JerryBB]

Thanks Toby for inputting on the dating. Post 1881 but pre sometime in the 1890's.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Thanks Toby for inputting on the dating. Post 1881 but pre sometime in the 1890's.

One note of caution though, the dragons / griffins are upright which indicates either, a head dress badge, or a 1902 mess dress collar (of varied pattern from a tailor somewhere). For upright, so called Prussian style collars, the dragon would be horizontal, although some tailors are known to have made the dragons to rotate for multiple use.

[JerryBB]

Indeed for the red tunic they would be too tall to stand upright in the same manner as the OSD version do because they are on the lapels.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Jerry,
I like those almost 3D dragons!
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Indeed for the red tunic they would be too tall to stand upright in the same manner as the OSD version do because they are on the lapels.

[41st]

Toby,

I have the style posted at the head of this thread as mess dress in my notes.

Hwyl,

Kevin

[GriffMJ]

The vertical lines in the Gryphon is heraldic "hatching" for Gules (the colour red).

BTW does anyone know why the Gryphon instead of Y Ddraig Goch (rampant)?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Indeed for the red tunic they would be too tall to stand upright in the same manner as the OSD version do because they are on the lapels.

Yes I think so. They were first mentioned as mess dress collar badges in the 1902 Dress Regulations, when the roll collar (and much less costly) mess dress replaced the previous, upright collar version. When I first joined the regiment all the older officers were still wearing that pattern with the young subalterns and captains in the slightly revised upright collar pattern that had been reverted to. I now believe that your bullion badges are early version badges from 1902.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 41st

Toby,

I have the style posted at the head of this thread as mess dress in my notes.

Hwyl,

Kevin

Yes that makes sense Kevin.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

The vertical lines in the Gryphon is heraldic "hatching" for Gules (the colour red).

BTW does anyone know why the Gryphon instead of Y Ddraig Goch (rampant)?

The Gyphon seems to have been used first but I do not know why. It appears in the Regimental Records of the British Army book by J S Farmer published in the early 1900s. It also appeared on the silver mess livery buttons from the same period. From what I can gather the pattern seems to have changed after WW1,possibly at the same time as the spelling of Welsh/Welch changed. The Red Dragon had long appeared on the regimental colours but as actual regimental insignia it came from a Militia unit as part of the Cardwell Reform mergers in July 1881.