Coldstream Guards badges

[grenadierguardsman]

Just flicking through a book on the Coldstream Guards, and have just found a bit of info, " 1803 Equipment was of whitened leather with a black ammunition pouch having a brass garter star badge. Not as early as Toby's image early on in this thread though.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Brilliant stuff Andy. 1799 was the earliest that I have seen for a die stamped or perhaps cast cartouche badge, as opposed to a more rudimentary one cut from sheet brass. It is really noticeable that the cartouche badge is the same size as the badge worn on the tall, peaked forage cap 1830-50. I think that was the first undress cap on which a metal badge was worn (previous caps were made up from worn out coatees with a simple cloth badge cut out and stitched on). It seems entirely sensible that the existing cartouche badge was seen as ideal for this new headwear (that had possibly been worn by the officers in superior materials for some time before).

N.B. Notice how on your 1850-55 picture the badge on the shoulder belt plate looks like it might be the same size as that in the cartouche too. If it is that makes three uses for a badge from the same die. The valise star, however, is much bigger.

[leigh kitchen]

A few more CG Stars:
Line & Grenadier Coys c1708 - 20, the star worn on the pouch.
CG Undress c1875 - the various ways of wearing the side cap & of positioning the star(I wonder if some men wore two Stars, one on the outside of the flap, towards the front & one on the side of the cap itself, in the centre & hidden when the flap was turned up?). As these men are on a musketry course it seems sensible to be able to shade the eyes with the cap flap.
CG sergeant is white drill, officer in blue frock, c1875.
CG Drum Major c1875.
CG Boer War, 1899 on the right, 1900 on the left.
The red plume was worn on at least one occasion when 2CG & reservists paraded in Home Service Dress on 20/10/1899, prior to departure for SA.
A small red feather plume was provided at regimental cost & officers wore a small Garter Star badge on the helmet in addition to the plume.
Pouches were replaced in 1900 by bandoliers & helmets by the slouch hat with red plume & small Garter Star badge.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes, I believe it is Belgic. Perhaps the cartouche is just meant as debris and detritus, I seem to recall that the Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard did have such a grenade device on their cartouche pouches. I am fairly sure that the British Foot Guards did not.

Not really adding a lot to the thread, but I was given a few old photo slides that I scanned yesterday, just before reading the quoted post.
Taken by me in 1970 at a little Battle of Waterloo museum at Waterloo, I remember looking at the cartouche on this mannequin, it bore a die struck brass grenade (which had been snapped at the neck of the flames but both parts were still affixed the the leather).
The photography on that school trip didn't improve as I'd discovered very cheap bottles of a fizzy yellow drink called "Stella" something or other at the green grocers in Ostend.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Not really adding a lot to the thread, but I was given a few old photo slides that I scanned yesterday, just before reading the quoted post.
Taken by me in 1970 at a little Battle of Waterloo museum at Waterloo, I remember looking at the cartouche on this mannequin, it bore a die struck brass grenade (which had been snapped at the neck of the flames but both parts were still affixed the the leather).
The photography on that school trip didn't improve as I'd discovered very cheap bottles of a fizzy yellow drink called "Stella" something or other at the green grocers in Ostend.

Yes I am satisfied that the cartouche pouch depicted by Scollins is French and battlefield detritus.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

A few more CG Stars:
Line & Grenadier Coys c1708 - 20, the star worn on the pouch.
CG Undress c1875 - the various ways of wearing the side cap & of positioning the star(I wonder if some men wore two Stars, one on the outside of the flap, towards the front & one on the side of the cap itself, in the centre & hidden when the flap was turned up?). As these men are on a musketry course it seems sensible to be able to shade the eyes with the cap flap.
CG sergeant is white drill, officer in blue frock, c1875.
CG Drum Major c1875.
CG Boer War, 1899 on the right, 1900 on the left.
The red plume was worn on at least one occasion when 2CG & reservists paraded in Home Service Dress on 20/10/1899, prior to departure for SA.
A small red feather plume was provided at regimental cost & officers wore a small Garter Star badge on the helmet in addition to the plume.
Pouches were replaced in 1900 by bandoliers & helmets by the slouch hat with red plume & small Garter Star badge.

The Drum-major is Scots Guards I think but the same principle applies.

The really rare images, and the ones that show the larger cap star, are of the peaked forage cap worn by all ORs circa 1830-1850. After that only battalion staff (and officers) had peaks, until the new forage cap of 1905-06, onward through to today.

[leigh kitchen]

A Belgic shako front that used to be displayed at a museum in Brussels, it appears to be a 2nd Foot Guards Light Company item.
Allegedly a relic of Waterloo it's considered suspect, a possible "put together".

A self portrait by a man who served in the 1st Foot Guards 1804 - 1825, depicting himself wearing walking out uniform with Belgic shako as a member of the Light Coy in 1815 (his battalion didn't serve at Waterloo).

A more recent interpretation of the self portrait, the star thought to have an oval rather than round centre, consisting of the regiment's device of the Garter encircling the royal cypher.

The crowned rococo shield shaped plate for the for infantry bore the regimental number, the 1st Foot Guards plate an embossed star bearing the Garter with "GR" in the centre, worn from the introduction of the Belgic.
On 28/12/1814 it was ordered that Light Companies adopt separate badges of a bugle horn over the regimental number.
It was long thought that the 1st Foot Guards now wore the bugle over the rococo shield plate but the self portrait shows that the bugle was worn over a star.
At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako?).

The Coldstream's star shown is part of a grouping of items to one man of the regiment in a collection comprising "papers", a Colour Sergeants badge, a Waterloo Medal, a six pointed star of yellow, scarlet & dark blue ribbon (a recruiting "favour"?) & this brass Garter star on a scarlet cloth backing.

It's described as being 47mm tall by 44mm wide, too small for use on the knapsack or cartridge pouch, having a large & sturdy fitting on the reverse which precludes its use on the uniform, but would be suitable for use on head dress though too large as a form of securing a cockade.

It is possibly a badge to be worn by the Light Coy of the 2nd Foot Guards as per the arrangement in the 1st Foot Guards self portrait.........

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The Drum-major is Scots Guards I think but the same principle applies.

The really rare images, and the ones that show the larger cap star, are of the peaked forage cap worn by all ORs circa 1830-1850. After that only battalion staff (and officers) had peaks, until the new forage cap of 1905-06, onward through to today.

The photo is stated to be of Drum Major Price of the CG.
His tunic buttons just about qualify as being in pairs, although it isn't very obvious. Four button cuffs - the SG were wearing three buttons on the cuff at that time?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

A Belgic shako front that used to be displayed at a museum in Brussels, it appears to be a 2nd Foot Guards Light Company item.
Allegedly a relic of Waterloo it's considered suspect, a possible "put together".

A self portrait by a man who served in the 1st Foot Guards 1804 - 1825, depicting himself wearing walking out uniform with Belgic shako as a member of the Light Coy in 1815 (his battalion didn't serve at Waterloo).

A more recent interpretation of the self portrait, the star thought to have an oval rather than round centre, consisting of the regiment's device of the Garter encircling the royal cypher.

The crowned rococo shield shaped plate for the for infantry bore the regimental number, the 1st Foot Guards plate an embossed star bearing the Garter with "GR" in the centre, worn from the introduction of the Belgic.
On 28/12/1814 it was ordered that Light Companies adopt separate badges of a bugle horn over the regimental number.
It was long thought that the 1st Foot Guards now wore the bugle over the rococo shield plate but the self portrait shows that the bugle was worn over a star.
At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako?).

The Coldstream's star shown is part of a grouping of items to one man of the regiment in a collection comprising "papers", a Colour Sergeants badge, a Waterloo Medal, a six pointed star of yellow, scarlet & dark blue ribbon (a recruiting "favour"?) & this brass Garter star on a scarlet cloth backing.

It's described as being 47mm tall by 44mm wide, too small for use on the knapsack or cartridge pouch, having a large & sturdy fitting on the reverse which precludes its use on the uniform, but would be suitable for use on head dress though too large as a form of securing a cockade.

It is possibly a badge to be worn by the Light Coy of the 2nd Foot Guards as per the arrangement in the 1st Foot Guards self portrait.........

Great images. The yellow, blue and red rosette was indeed a recruiting favour that was used for over 100 years, usually with trailing streamers. It was worn by the entire recruiting party 'drumming up' recruits and often given to each man signed up as a marker of his capture/belonging.
The brass badge that you have posted seems in size very much like the star worn by CG on the 1830-50 peaked forage cap. I think that the same die made stars for the cartouche pouch and shoulder belt plate but with differing fixings.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

The photo is stated to be of Drum Major Price of the CG.
His tunic buttons just about qualify as being in pairs, although it isn't very obvious. Four button cuffs - the SG were wearing three buttons on the cuff at that time?

You are quite right, looking again it is obvious that the buttons are in pairs. I was thrown by what seems an overly elongated star, but of course he was battalion staff and thus wore a more officer's style of badge, albeit in inferior metals.

[leigh kitchen]

[QUOTE=leigh kitchen;422048]
......... At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako? ).......

QUOTE]

A senior moment there - 1st Bn 2nd Foot Guards, a sergeant of a Battalion Company
Regency shako without the back peak of some of the earlier models, & increased in height.
Authorised in August 1815, the Regency shako was not on general issue until the following year.

[Frank Kelley]

I take it, the badge would be secured to the valise, itself, by loops, rather than actually attached to the central strap, at that particular point in time?

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Coldstream Guards 1880.
Andy

[Frank Kelley]

So was the cape actually worn with a third, central strap, or simply just the two, the badge would certainly look rather odd, placed on a strap at either end, rather than in the middle?
Was it worn at waist level or behind the shoulder, as the folded greatcoat had been?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

My understanding is that for Guard Order the cape alone (with valise badge) was worn after WW2, as per the left hand man in your twin rear view, until the end of National Service. I suspect that it was only in the Colder half of the year though. It was an old guardsman who told me. Adding that it was as a protection from rainfall. In those days guard included duties at Buck house, Jimmies and the Bank of England as well as Windsor Castle when Royals were in residence.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I take it, the badge would be secured to the valise, itself, by loops, rather than actually attached to the central strap, at that particular point in time?

I believe you are right Frank, if it wasn't it ( the badge ) may slip down.
Andy

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Andy,
I had thought it was safe to assume the square shaped fitting for the strap was a twentieth century thing.
Regards Frank