WRAF ASR RADIO / CUMINCATIONS

[Old Smelly]

Originally Posted by badgeman

A question for ASR142! is this and the badges original or made by me?

The BD was made by Pegasus

[badgeman]

ASR wartime (black) wings/drivers/pilot of the boat badge, and post war(blue/grey) ASR boat arm badge!

[badgeman]

yes mate it was, but all the badges are original, I was just using that as an example to ASR142 to show that if you want to you can make a BD with whatever badges you want, in this case its a wartime BD with some original wartime wireless op badges, but someone has sewn on some postwar ASR and shoulder eagle badges, I would make a guess they have done this to deliberately fool someone out of alot of money, as ASR stuff is expensive.

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by SAS1

Steve

The Air/Sea Rescue badge was not issued to all who served in the Maritime Branch. Whilst you are correct in that it was not a trade badge it was granted in recognition of the dangers the Air/Sea Rescue crews put themselves in when rescuing downed aircrews, and so was worn only by those NCOs and Airmen who were actively engaged on 'operations' (IE on launches).

The badge was NOT worn by WAAFs who served in ASR units (few as they were - most 'ground' jobs such as cooks, clerks and the like being done by men), serving as clerks, or those girls who looked after the various items of safety gear in the Equipment Section. This latter group serviced equipment on the launches too. See the photos below taken circa late 1944.

Whilst made post war, and not as good as 'For Those in Peril', the early 50s film 'The Sea Shall Not Have Them' (also about ASR) features WAAFs, not wearing the badge.

Hi Matie (not haveing a go but )
The photos shown in your post was series of pictures taken in febuary 1942 showing WAAF preparing launch 2562 acording to the information surplied by IWM how ever they have the wrong launch number stated , I beleave this to be launch 2563 which was a single aquisition from J I Thornycoft & Co Portsmouth as the window height , deck layout match their layout to a tee and would fit in with the date that the photos where taken and is proberly a typing error which how ever the date would be most likly be correct which is before the patches where issued to any one .
A treat for you !! see pic
The launch used in the film The Sea Shall Not Have Them was coxend by 4002871 F/SGT P B Munnion who was filmed for a short few seconds no head shot at the helm as no one could coxen the launch while moving other than him. Here is a pic of a page out of his log books .This incerdently was launch 2561 which if you look at the film was not the same as the one stated to be 2562 in the pictures by the IWM which was the last in that batch number made by the British Power Boat company at Hyth near Southampton .
2nd pic 2562 http://www.asrmcs-club.com/boatswebsite/gallery/2562h/
3rd pic the run prior to launch 2563 being built http://www.asrmcs-club.com/boatswebsite/gallery/2510/
The pictures have been liberated from the Air Sea rescue and marine branch services association web sites well They did use over 100 of mine for there web site/s I dont mind really !!!
steve

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by badgeman

yes mate it was, but all the badges are original, I was just using that as an example to ASR142 to show that if you want to you can make a BD with whatever badges you want, in this case its a wartime BD with some original wartime wireless op badges, but someone has sewn on some postwar ASR and shoulder eagle badges, I would make a guess they have done this to deliberately fool someone out of alot of money, as ASR stuff is expensive.

actualy it came out of a charity shop in surrey !!!

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by Old Smelly

The BD was made by Pegasus

Darn you ! beat me to it lee !!!!

[badgeman]

Well you did very well then, but it still does not alter the fact that the shoulder eagles and ASR badges are post war!

[badgeman]

Originally Posted by ASR142

Hi GUYS
Has any one got any pictures of any WRAF pesonal who is wearing the RAF ASR arm patch or patches ?
also information regarding how they wore the patche and any info regarding the wearing trade badges was it the same for the 2 services ( RAF AND WRAF ) ?
regarsd steve
I got this at the weekend from a good source its not been messed with only cleaned by myself with some sticky tape wrapped around my hands to clean the dust and moth from it its going to go in the freezer shortly .
I know they had wraf pesonnel in the RAF ASR service doing admin and some radio work + other tasks but I have never seen a tunic till this one the rules for the ASR badeg for the RAF was for the badge to be worn on the right side only I dont have any info on the WRAF personnel and how they wore their badges . The badge is the late war example .
heres the pics

A charity shop is a good source, as it gives money to the charity, but you have absolutely no provenance, the person could have been in ASR during and after the war, which might explain the wartime and post war badges, the person may have gone to a 1940's party in the 1970's and dressed for the occasion, but wanted the BD to look better so put some more badges on it, there could be numerous reasons why this BD has wartime and post war badges on, but without the owner telling you, or better still writing it down, or seeing any WW2 pictures of ASR types, or the owner in the war wearing these post war badges I'm afraid your argument falls over somewhat.
Sorry but you are wrong on this one
BM

[ASR142]

[QUOTE=badgeman;213019]Hi all
Some FACTS about World War Two RAF/WAAF O'Rs NCOs and all Officers cloth badges.
Shoulder eagles on blue - POST WAR!! (From 1947)
Sealed pattern in pic above - only version allowed to be worn - on BLACK!

I have just gone through some of my pics that are on the computor for you here is Some of J M Edwards pics Taken during his time in the ASR service who lived at fawly near Southampton and served on the sea plane refuelers and for a short while he was based in japan before his demob .
Note the RAF beret being worn with Plastic badge also note the badegs being worn by the chap with the glases and colour and type of badge being worn on his right arm , Note J M Edwards badges on his arm intresting to note the colour of the BRITISH COMONWEALTH FORCES PATCH is the light blue example I dig out the crate of ASR photo albums and pictures later in the week from the store and have a good hunt through them for more examples . steve
somthing that just came to mind is C J A TOLHURST who was a fitter based at calshot heres his uniform and some of his bits .

[SAS1]

Badgeman, writing this in haste as I dash out, but the goldfish badge is very fake, produced by a bloke in Leeds.

[badgeman]

Originally Posted by SAS1

Badgeman, writing this in haste as I dash out, but the goldfish badge is very fake, produced by a bloke in Leeds.

Yea I know I couldn't bring myself to put a needle through my real one!!

[badgeman]

Hi ASR 142
Sorry for not getting back sooner but work had other idea's!
You have some nice stuff there I will agree, but you really need to brush up on your RAF history, yes they adopted a blue grey beret in 1943 initially only for wear by members of the RAF Regiment. Gradually authorisation for wear of the beret spread from trade to trade but it never fully replaced the "FS" (Field Service) cap until after WW2.
In your pictures, No.2 all the badges except one are wartime, the one that is not WW2 is the commonwealth crown, as you said he was wearing that in Japan, so this is obviously after VJ day, therefore only just but it is postwar!
Picture No.3 this again is postwar, the chap in front has three wartime badges you can just see the LAC badge (the propeller) on his left arm, and the GC stripe, the others are postwar, also the other chap sat behind him is wearing his WW2 medal ribbons, During the war, aside from gallantry awards, few ribbons were worn (unless they were from prior campaigns or conflicts eg, WW1, 1st and 2nd Boar wars, ect), the qualifying period was sorted when the war ended. One exception was the 1939-43 Star, the ribbon of which was allowed to be worn from November 1943. However, before the medal itself was struck, it was renamed the 1939-45 Star, and issued after the war. All other medals, such as the War Medal, Defence Medal, Burma Star, Atlantic Medal, Air Crew Europe ect, were issued after the war, and thus are not on uniforms until the end of the war, as your picture, Second World War Service personnel were not issued with medals before they were de-mobilised at the end of the war and consequently they had to claim them after they had left the Services. This differed from the arrangements at the end of the First World War when the majority of medals were sent out automatically. This was not considered to be practical after the Second World War, as most people had returned to civilian life before the medals were instituted in 1948 . At the time they were encouraged to visit their local Post Office, pick up a buff card and enter onto it their number rank and name, and send it to the Minister for War to request their medals.
Many had much more pressing things to worry about, like where were they going to live as a result of their house being demolished by bombing, or where were they going to find a job. It was decided at the time that only those people who remained in the Armed Forces would receive their medals automatically. Although the availability of medals for wartime service was widely advertised at the time, many people did not come forward.
Yes two Airmen are wearing the WW2 type berets, but as already explained they could have been issued with these in the war, but with the other evidence this photo was taken postwar.
Picture No.4, All wartime badges Dark Blue/Black Backing
As said before, If you don't know a question and ask, that's fine, but then not to listen and still believe what you want too, well that's just fool hardy.
BM

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by badgeman

Hi ASR 142
Sorry for not getting back sooner but work had other idea's!
You have some nice stuff there I will agree, but you really need to brush up on your RAF history, yes they adopted a blue grey beret in 1943 initially only for wear by members of the RAF Regiment. Gradually authorisation for wear of the beret spread from trade to trade but it never fully replaced the "FS" (Field Service) cap until after WW2.
In your pictures, No.2 all the badges except one are wartime, the one that is not WW2 is the commonwealth crown, as you said he was wearing that in Japan, so this is obviously after VJ day, therefore only just but it is postwar!
Picture No.3 this again is postwar, the chap in front has three wartime badges you can just see the LAC badge (the propeller) on his left arm, and the GC stripe, the others are postwar, also the other chap sat behind him is wearing his WW2 medal ribbons, During the war, aside from gallantry awards, few ribbons were worn (unless they were from prior campaigns or conflicts eg, WW1, 1st and 2nd Boar wars, ect), the qualifying period was sorted when the war ended. One exception was the 1939-43 Star, the ribbon of which was allowed to be worn from November 1943. However, before the medal itself was struck, it was renamed the 1939-45 Star, and issued after the war. All other medals, such as the War Medal, Defence Medal, Burma Star, Atlantic Medal, Air Crew Europe ect, were issued after the war, and thus are not on uniforms until the end of the war, as your picture, Second World War Service personnel were not issued with medals before they were de-mobilised at the end of the war and consequently they had to claim them after they had left the Services. This differed from the arrangements at the end of the First World War when the majority of medals were sent out automatically. This was not considered to be practical after the Second World War, as most people had returned to civilian life before the medals were instituted in 1948 . At the time they were encouraged to visit their local Post Office, pick up a buff card and enter onto it their number rank and name, and send it to the Minister for War to request their medals.
Many had much more pressing things to worry about, like where were they going to live as a result of their house being demolished by bombing, or where were they going to find a job. It was decided at the time that only those people who remained in the Armed Forces would receive their medals automatically. Although the availability of medals for wartime service was widely advertised at the time, many people did not come forward.
Yes two Airmen are wearing the WW2 type berets, but as already explained they could have been issued with these in the war, but with the other evidence this photo was taken postwar.
Picture No.4, All wartime badges Dark Blue/Black Backing
As said before, If you don't know a question and ask, that's fine, but then not to listen and still believe what you want too, well that's just fool hardy.
BM

Hi Bm
I beleave you have missed the point of the pics but I BLAME MYSELF for that for not being more to the point so i will do a reply later and explane in detail .cheers steve

[SAS1]

Well, a lot to catch up on here!

Some FACTS about World War Two RAF/WAAF O'Rs NCOs and all Officers cloth badges.
Shoulder eagles on blue - POST WAR!! (From 1947)
Sealed pattern in pic above - only version allowed to be worn - on BLACK!

If you don't know a question and ask, that's fine, but then not to listen and still believe what you want too well that's just fool hardy.

Badgeman, that's a bit of a harsh comment of yours at the end, especially as your 'FACTS' are incorrect!

To begin with, RAF badges for Airmen and NCOs (trade badges, rank badges, shoulder eagles and titles) changed from a dark blue or black backing in 1949, not 1947. (Which is why they don't appear on your 1948 dated tunic). Officers titles were on blue/grey during the war, and they didn't wear trade badges or shoulder eagles. There was a major change to both officers, Airmens and working uniform (IE Battledress - for both) in 1947, the main being the introduction of the open necked BD for all ranks, and a new pattern tunic for Officers, which was unpopular to the extent that it was revised again in 1949.

The Sealed Pattern ASR badge was neither on black, nor was it the only type to be officially worn during the war. If you look at the other thread (http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ead.php?t=9940) you will see my collection of ASR badges, since expanded by a couple of other variations. Three badges were designed, from which one was selected showing a launch cutting through the waves. It was produced in light blue on dark blue (Stores Ref 22H/694) and in red on tan (Stores Ref 22H/695), and despite the submitted samples being woven, the final badge, introduced in 1943 under Air Ministry Order A17/43 was printed. In 35 years of badge research and collecting it is the only one I have found that was specified on introduction as a printed badge (most being woven with printed badges introduced later for economy reasons). The Sealed Pattern was therefore correct for the first issue badges. However, within months woven versions on dark blue were also produced and worn as evidenced by period film and photos.

In a break from the norm, and for unknown reasons, a version was produced and issued in 1944 with a blue/grey backing. All ASR badges were worn only by NCOs and Airmen, who would normally wear badges on the dark blue. There are period photographs of the blue/grey ASR badge being worn, but the film 'For Those in Peril' is probably the best indicator, being shown throughout, the film completed in late 1944.

The ASR Sleeve badge was introduced after calls were made for a badge to distinguish the trade. In 1941 men at No. 27 ASR Unit at Dover took it upon themselves to design and wear a badge, which took the form of a pair of RAF pilots wings in miniature, but with a lifebelt in the centre bearing the letters 'HSL' (High Speed Launch), instead of the usual wreath and crown. The badges were made up by a local tailors in Dover called Falconers, at a cost of half a crown each. Worn over the left breast pocket, they were withdrawn after complaints by aircrew who took exception to ground trades wearing an 'aircrew' badge. An example of that very rare badge is shown in your latter post.

ASR wartime (black) wings/drivers/pilot of the boat badge, and post war(blue/grey) ASR boat arm badge!

As noted, the wings badge was unofficial and soon withdrawn. The sleeve badge shown is on dark blue not blue/grey (the pattern of boat is different) and as stated is not post war.

Picture No.3 this again is postwar, the chap in front has three wartime badges you can just see the LAC badge (the propeller) on his left arm, and the GC stripe, the others are postwar, also the other chap sat behind him is wearing his WW2 medal ribbons, During the war, aside from gallantry awards, few ribbons were worn (unless they were from prior campaigns or conflicts eg, WW1, 1st and 2nd Boar wars, ect)

Yes two Airmen are wearing the WW2 type berets, but as already explained they could have been issued with these in the war, but with the other evidence this photo was taken postwar.

As previously stated, the ASR arm badge, which you assume is post war and as proved here was not, is being worn. Looking at the chap at front centre, I'd suggest the sleeve eagle is a bevo weave type (on Rayon) which is giving the impression of a lighter colour, while the LAC badge (going by the shape and size) is printed. Also you have to consider that his sleeve eagle would have been worn from the start (perhaps 2, 3 or 4 years or more) and thus prone to fading, while the LAC badge might have been attached that morning.

As for medal ribbons, you have answered your own question. They could well be prewar campaign medals, and without knowing exactly what they are you cannot say simply by wearing several a photo is post war. As the person in the photos served in Japan at the end of the war, that still takes in late 1945.

On a slightly different topic, Goldfish Club badges were generally woven, the ghastly printed effort on the BD being wrong in every sense of the word. Far from not wanting to put a needle through your original, I'd get that one off the BD straight away. The only printed Goldfish Club badges were produced in the Middle East, and are block printed on wool (not screen printed on cotton). I have one, presented to an Aussie.

As you say, berets were first issued to the RAF Regiment in May 1943, the Regiment having been formed the previous year from what had been known as the 'Aerodrome Defence Corps'.

Very early on in the war the badges were worn on both arms, but as the war progressed they were only worn on the right arm

Seemingly not always! (see below)

As mentioned, with regards the BD of the original post. The shoulder eagles were introduced on blue/grey in 1949, and so the BD can't be earlier than that. As the ASR badge was abolished totally in 1948 it raises question marks anyway, but as the eagles are the much more blue type, worn in the 60s, for me its a ringer.

The patch was not just for wear buy those who served on the launches as it was issued to all those who served in the marine branch service as it was a denotion of branch of service rather than a qualification patch

I don't see WAAFs wearing the ASR badge at all either I'm afraid. Whilst you say the ASR badge isn't a trade badge as such, in effect it is, being the badge of the Marine Branch. However, WAAFs did not serve as members of the Marine Branch (unlike those in Bomber or Fighter Command which were Commands), but were effectively seconded to it, the only three branches for WAAFs being a) the Administrative, Special Duty (such as Medics) and Equipment Branch; b) the Technical Branch, and c) the Accountant Branch. They would be seconded to do their specific job (Safety equipment, admin etc) with only those entitled to a distinguishing badge (such as medical) permitted to wear one.

As said before, If you don't know a question and ask, that's fine, but then not to listen and still believe what you want too, well that's just fool hardy.

After 35 years of badge collecting and researching I am still learning. Perhaps what I have written will be taken on board too...

[wardog]

Lot to take in. Hope you guys can agree on periods of usage of shite hawk backing as it is going above me a bit. I had thought all printed or dark blue early and blue grey as mainly found on greatcoats post war. Could someone re state this for me. Also the inverted chevron SAC badge- I have seen SD with this and wondered what they were- dates of use please. Cheers, Paul.