Any ideas please - Seaforth Highlanders?

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

Seeing all these unknown Scottish type badges which have appeared over the weekend reminded me of this unknown (to me) badge, which I have being trying to identify.
At a quick glance it looks like a Seaforth Highlanders badge, but the title/motto scroll reads "CABAR FEIDH" (Translation = The Stags Head") rather than the usual Seaforth's motto of "CUIDICH'N RIGH" (Trans. HELP TO THE KING).
It is made of quite heavy white metal and definitely looks to have been made as two parts. The stags head has three lugs (one at the tip of each antler and the other in the centre of the head) whilst the motto scroll has two lugs, one at either end.
The stags head is 52mm from the tip of the antler to the bottom of the nose and 44mm across the widest part of the antlers. The motto scroll is 50mm wide. There is NO makers mark on the back of the badge.
Possibly a Pipers badge or just a Clan badge to the Mackenzies?
Any help or ideas gratefully received. If you need clearer photos, let me know.

Regards

Ian

[4966Ian]

Yes, well it helps if I attached the pictures!! Sorry.

Ian

There is a Highland Pipes and Drums Band in Royal Oak, Michigan who continue the traditions of Scottish Pipe and Drum bands. This is their motto and it is worn as a glengarry badge, a plaid brooch and a waist belt plate. Your item sounds as though it is the glengarry badge. So, a civilian item, not military. Your motto is also the motto of Ross-shire, Scotland but there is no evidence of it being used in any context as a badge - the clan McKenzie glengarry badge is in the traditional form of a garter and device within, not a military style badge worn by the Seaforths. If your badge is available, I would be interested to purchase or exchange. Regards. David

[4966Ian]

Hi David,

My apologies for not getting back to you earlier, I have been away for a few days.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I had been through every reference book I had but couldn't find it, though I haven't got Bloomer's book on Scottish badges, but your explanation certainly explains it all. You always hope an unidentified badge is some rare and unusual variation, but seldom will they be.

With regards to your offer of purchasing the badge, email me if your offer still stands. I am interested in Berkshire related stuff (buttons/titles/badges etc.) including OTC/Wessex, DERR and RGBW if you have any swaps etc.

Anyway, thanks again for filling in the gaps in my knowledge.

Cheers

Ian

Hello Ian - I don't have much in the way of Royal Berkshire Regiment buttons available. I have only a 18mm QVC R.Berks and a 25mm KC R.Berks - both officers and both in vgc. Perhaps a little basic for you but not an easy regiment to find older buttons to. I sold a 66th 1840 officers' coatee button 2 weeks ago but again you may already have it. I actually want your badge for the stag's head - I have a Victorian Seaforth Highlanders table centre-piece with 2 stags heads either damaged or missing, so it is a repair item. If I can't find a swap, would you accept 12.00 plus postage for your item ? Please advise in due course. Regards. David

[dragonz18]

Ian,
a good friend tells me that the other mottoe is a 'secondry mottoe ' (??) of the Seaforths.
Hope this points you in a more possitive direction here.
The friend also has one of these, and is keen to find some extra information on this item.
Cheers !
Steve

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Ian. Your item is a silver Officer's Glengarry of the 72nd Foot circa 1870 - 1881. They had virtually the same badge as the 78th Foot except for the motto. After 1881 they combined to create the Seaforth Highlanders and used the 78th badge with the motto "Cuidich'n Righ" Hope this solves the mystery. Incidently, your badge is extemely rare (even the Regl Museum haven't got one !),so I advise you get a good price/exchange or to hang on to it. Regards. Jeff
PS: Would be grateful if you could you tell me the weight of each item Ian thanks.

For the 72nd to have worn this motto, the badge must date from before 1825, which was the year the Seaforths formally adopted Cuidich'n Righ (or Rhi) - although it had been in use certainly since 1794 and probably before that. Parkyn tells us that Cabar Feidh was the 'war-cry' of the Seaforths but there is no evidence that it featured on colours or accoutrements. Please remember also that the glengarry was a late 19th century item of headgear so that again challenges its relevance to being a Seaforths (72nd or 78th) head-dress badge. I would welcome the views of others on this - particularly those who specialise in Scottish head-dress badges. Regards. David

[4966Ian]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the replies and the effort that must have gone into researching this badge, it is much appreciated.
With regards to Jeff's query, the badge in total weighs 20g with the motto weighing 8g and the stag's head 12g.
I don't have many Silver badges to compare this one against, but it doesn't on first glance strike you as silver, even if it is dirty, more of a heavy white metal.
I have to admit I am looking forward to reading the replies to David's searching questions from all you experts out there.
Cheers
Ian

[Jeff Mc William]

Sorry David but you are quite wrong : This particular badge has already been positively identified by several different sources (as detailed below) including the Regimental Museum of the Queens Own Highlanders. I have a letter from them dated 20th May 1999 confirming this if you would like to see it. Also there are several known contemporary photos of officers of the 72nd shown wearing the Glengarry with this badge ; eg, see Fairrie's book page 15 which shows a group of officers in Afghanistan circa 1878-9 where the badge is clearly visible. Also, in the renowned Lucas collection of the mid 1930's there was a similar badge but with the Gallic letter "f" between the antlers. I appreciate this is not definite proof, but in such a prestige collection, it cannot be ignored. Again, amoung the artifacts of Bt.LtCol. W.H.J.Clarke (72nd Foot) sold by the dealer Chris Bryant to a private collector (not me) in 1987, was an identical badge to that shown by Ian. Col. Clarke was an officer of the regiment from 1860 to 1880. He died on duty at Allahbad in April 1880 so the badge cannot be after that date.
I am not sure why you so categorically believe that any badge bearing the motto "Cabar Feidh" must be pre 1825 since its use in 1870 is confirmed by the regiment, and, as Steve (above) says, it was always a secondary motto of the Seaforths. (See Chichester & Burges Short page 743). Perhaps the only way to settle this once and for all is for Ian to send his excellent photos to the curator at the regimental museum for an authoritative confirmation, and then we shall all know. Jeff.
PS: If yourself or Ian (or anybody) would like to contact me further re this, my e-mail address is : jeff.mcwilliam@tiscali.co.uk. Regards to all.

[Peter Brydon]

From "The Queens Own Highlanders" by Angus Farrie 2nd Edition page 244.

P.B.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi again David. Regarding the Cuidich'n Righ (Rhi) motto ; I now see where you got your information from, viz Parkyn. But, if I may say so, I fear you have misinterpreted him. The conditions to which you refer regarding its use on the Colours and appointments (ie badges etc) applied ONLY to the 78th Foot (not the 72nd). Also, Parkyn's reference to the "Seaforths" is misleading because neither of the two regiments had this title until after 1881.
Actually, as well as the controversy surrounding the badges of the 72nd Foot, there is also a great deal of confusion regarding the Glengarry badges to the 78th. See the MHS Bulletins for May 2007 and Feb 2008. Regards Jeff
PS: Sorry about the repeat messages but I dont know how to delete them !

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi again David. Regarding the Cuidich'n Righ (Rhi) motto ;

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi again David. Regarding the Cuidich'n Righ (Rhi) motto ; I now see where you got your information from, viz Parkyn. But, if I may say so, I fear you have misinterpreted him. The conditions to which you refer regarding its use on the Colours and appointments (ie badges etc) applied only to the 78th Foot (not the 72nd). Also, Parkyn's reference to the "Seaforths" is misleading since neither of the two regiments had this title until after 1881.
Actually, as well as the controversy surrounding the badges of the 72nd Foot, there is also a great deal of confusion regarding the Glengarry badges to the 78th. See the MHS Bulletins for May 2007 and Feb 2008. Regards Jeff

OK - I accept what has been said to contradict my opinion and I respect it all - BUT - where is the evidence to support the use of this motto ? Where are the illustrations of shoulder-belt-plates, waist-belt-clasps, bonnet badges, sash badges, banners, colours, paintings, prints or the like ? Why should such a heavily argued device be so elusive ? After all, the 72nd was the senior bn. of the Seaforths so what happened to its motto ? As a retired lawyer, I am only swayed by evidence - hard evidence. In the presence of such evidence I will concede - but not without ! I look forward to the flood of information to come. Regards. David