Welsh collar style sweetheart early type

[JerryBB]

I have a few Welsh collar badges converted into sweethearts and they all fall into the basic post 1908 pattern, but I also have one which is a shop made variant which appears to be based on an earlier version of the collar, though is not a collar conversion, if that makes sense. The sweetheart is marked as SILVER. I have also shown a "normal" sweetheart collar conversion.

I have an example of the collar coming to me and it is said to be pre 1881 so would I be correct in assuming the sweetheart is of a similar date?

Thanks.

[BROOKIES]

Good afternoon Jerry.

Don't think it is as early as that.

Here an image from 1916 that has a very similar badge (also got a few sweetheart of the same design).

Ta

img302.jpg

[Roy]

Nice badge Jerry,

Well done and thanks for sharing.

Cheers, Roy.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by BROOKIES

Good afternoon Jerry.

Don't think it is as early as that.

Here an image from 1916 that has a very similar badge (also got a few sweetheart of the same design).

Ta

Attachment 118610

Brilliant, great to see the advert Jonathan, excellent.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Roy

Nice badge Jerry,

Well done and thanks for sharing.

Cheers, Roy.

Thanks Roy. I'll add an image of the collar when it arrives, which is that which inspired me to post this thread.

[41st]

Jerry,

What Jonathan has shown you is not an advert, it is the header from one of the issues of the Cardiff Pals magazines. Here are some more Nos; 1-19 & 21.

They did not advertise the selling of that style of sweetheart badge rather they promoted the badges produced for the gift scheme as shown in the second photo.

Kevin

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by 41st

Jerry,

What Jonathan has shown you is not an advert, it is the header from one of the issues of the Cardiff Pals magazines. Here are some more Nos; 1-19 & 21.

They did not advertise the selling of that style of sweetheart badge rather they promoted the badges produced for the gift scheme as shown in the second photo.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin for the clarification and more examples of the magazine and an advert for a badge of the same basic design of the motto and feathers.

Interesting that the Pals used this version of the badge as their emblem, though as you mention they did not promote this exact badge.

[BROOKIES]

Jerry.

Here you go a couple of variants of Welsh/Welch sweetheart brooches.

img317.jpgimg318.jpgimg319.jpg

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by BROOKIES

Jerry.

Here you go a couple of variants of Welsh/Welch sweetheart brooches.

Very nice. I had had a peek at your album of sweethearts, a great collection of them. I'll ask your opinion of the collar when it arrives as I assume you will know more about it than I do, as my literature does not seem to cover it.

[41st]

Jerry,

There is nothing unusual about the Pals using that pattern of emblem, it is simply the approved Regimental device for the helmet plate centre and of course carries the Regimental motto.

Hwyl,

Kevin

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by 41st

Jerry,

There is nothing unusual about the Pals using that pattern of emblem, it is simply the approved Regimental device for the helmet plate centre and of course carries the Regimental motto.

Hwyl,

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, it just seems to be a different version to that for the collars, though is similar/same as that for some of the helmet plate centres.

Shown is the badge to which I refer, Churchill (History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge-2002) has it on p183 as;

Two superior metal versions exist, one all gilt, one silver & gilt. One is shown in (fig.1147), the plumes have more pointed turn-overs and more fully divided than on the collar badges and these characteristics are present on all varieties. They are not collar badges but tropical helmet ornaments and were worn by the 2nd bn officers and band in India c1906.


The above seems to answer my question and the seller was apparently mistaken in describing it as a collar badge.

[41st]

Jerry,
Quite simply, no he doesn't. 1147 bears little resemblance to what you are showing.
Those shown in Churchill as 1147 are in fact Officers' collars as worn on the blue frock coat c.1912.
The second one Churchill refers to is not in fact described as all gilt, but both motto scrolls being in gilding metal, at least that is what it says in my copy.
I believe that he is in fact refering to a 1908 pattern but with "The" motto scroll overlayed in gilding metal only, as opposed to "The" motto scroll, crown & motto scroll of the PoW's device being overlaid in gilding metal as shown in 1147.
If this is the case it is the collar badge as worn by the RSM of the 1st Batt'n on tropical service dress c.1923.
I have examples of both of the above.
From memory I think your lhs collar is Brecknockshire RV or something similar. I will have to look at mine to be certain.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[JerryBB]

I have the dragons as 1st Brecknockshire Vb (SWB).

What do you think the gilded badge is as I do not think you mention what it is, unless I missed that?

The paragraph from Churchill. He does not seem to show all versions of the badges he mentions.

I agree that 1147 only has a passing resemblance to this badge.