A Question of Ethics. Read Me First.

[Peter Brydon]

If anyone watched any of the Antiques Road Trip programmes ( and I know the whole thing is staged for the camera`s ) you would see the so called experts ( many of whom are auctioneers themselves ) negotiating with the dealers at the local antique centers.

The experts expected to get large discounts on the asking prices and is some case got items for nothing. The idea being that the items are then sold at local auctions to see which " expert" made the most profit.

It made me wonder what the reply would be to any punter who tried to negotiate a discount with the "experts" on the rate of commission they charge in their auctions. I have some ideas as to what the reply might have been.

Nearer to home on an odd occasion when I stood at a fair to dispose of surplus items, a well known dealer ,sadly no longer with us, asked for trade discount on the price of a number of badges he had agreed to buy from me. This from a man I had bought many items off over many years with never the suggestion that he might offer me a discount.

If a dealer who makes a living from buying and selling undersells an item then in my opinion it is "Tough Luck" and if you are the first person to see an item for sale and buy it then that is nobody elses business.

P.B.

[Fatherofthree]

Power to the buyer.

If the Dealer hasn't the sense or business acumen to do a little research on what they are selling then tough.

If they don't know what items are worth then the answer is don't put them on sale until they do know, or if they do offer items without any research, and they discover later they were worth more than the asking price, again tough, that's their fault and nobody elses.

Regards
Brian

[James G]

I went to a car boot fair a couple of years ago and found two first edition Dickens novels both beautifully bound amongst a lot of paperbacks. I asked the seller how much they were. She said 75p each. They were worth about £250 each. Did I buy them. No. Instead I said would you take 50p each to which she replied "okay". So I bought them for 50p each.
I still feel ashamed. Would I do it again. Too damned right. It's a commercial transaction.
I wouldn't do it in a charity shop so I suppose I still have some moral scruples.

James

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by James G

I went to a car boot fair a couple of years ago and found two first edition Dickens novels both beautifully bound amongst a lot of paperbacks. I asked the seller how much they were. She said 75p each. They were worth about £250 each. Did I buy them. No. Instead I said would you take 50p each to which she replied "okay". So I bought them for 50p each.
I still feel ashamed. Would I do it again. Too damned right. It's a commercial transaction.
I wouldn't do it in a charity shop so I suppose I still have some moral scruples.

James

"Nice one Centurian"

Ry

[jubilationtcornpone]

Thank you to all who responded to my query.

The above title states my feelings in the case I described. The helmets are things I have always wanted. Both parties would have been happy. Jibba, I have had a long talk with my "poor lad" about what to do if this occurs again. I would most likely only reveal, IMO, what an item(s) is/are worth if I was not interested in it and if I felt that the other person was interested in what I had to say. In this case I think that the dealer just wanted to get rid of the items. Relatives who have no interest in an ancestors military memorabilia I might say something to about what they have. It depends. I have heard horror stories about things going out in the trash.

As far as the internet and various antique programs revealing the value of items my attitude is, if they say an item is worth X mount of dollars and I am offering Y amount of dollars, Y being less than X, I am here, cash in hand. You, Mr. Dealer, may get $X.00 at some point, or you may be back here next year still trying to sell your item. I am a sure thing.

Of course, the down side to this is letting your greed blind you to the possibility that the item(s) might not be what you think they are.

Don

[btns]

There has been a lawsuit on this in the USA. A deceased man's collection was auctioned by his heirs. One painting out of a grouped lot got the interest of a British art dealer. The picture was not very clear. He took the plane, inspected the paintings and bought the lot for a few thousand dollars.
Back in the UK he had the painter's identity confirmed and sold the painting for around 100,000.
The family found out. They sued both the art dealer and the auction house. They stated they should have been informed.
For months all international art magazines kept track of the lawsuit.
The verdict was a relief: the expertise of an art dealer is his property. He is not obliged to pass it on to a seller.

It is not a matter of integrity. You spent time and money building up your skills. They are yours and you should have the benefit of them, not a third party.

[Alan O]

Only in the USA could you have sued the buyer!

You might have a case for compensation because of negligence against the Auction House in UK but that is doubtful and even we would never manage to sue the buyer.

[Peter Brydon]

Interesting that the deceaseds family sued both the purchaser ( dealer ) and the auctioneers.

To me it should have been the auction house, who presumably had a duty of care to the vendor ( or his estate ) who undersold the item, with whom the deceased`s estate might had a claim. They obviously did not do the research they should have done. When charging a "lotting fee" as a lot of auction houses do, one wonders what exactly they do for that fee.( I have been charged a lotting fee even when the auctioneers used my description of the article word for word )


I cannot see how anyone paying the asking price for an article, or being the highest bidder in an auction ,can be deemed to have done anything wrong but I suppose in this litigation happy world we live in, the legal profession are always trying to push boundaries, or perhaps putting it another way, finding new ways of earning fees.

P.B.

[jubilationtcornpone]

Alan,

This country, the US, was founded on the idea of equality. Our Declaration of Independence states "...all men are created equal..." There are 2 ways of looking at this concept of equality, equality of opportunity, or equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity gives both buyer and seller an equal chance to make the best deal possible by ensuring a fair, to both parties, process. Equality of outcome means that neither party will be permitted to profit at the others expense. It is the 2nd meaning which the seller used to sue the buyer. Obviously not a lot of "empathy" for the seller. I will not go into my subtle dig at our president and his criteria for selecting judges.

If it had gone the other way, I wonder if there is anything which would have prevented the buyer from turning around and suing the seller for the buyer's appraisal fee?

I agree with 8thfoot "I cannot see how anyone paying the asking price for an article, or being the highest bidder in an auction ,can be deemed to have done anything wrong".

Is this a great country or what?

Don

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by btns

You spent time and money building up your skills. They are yours and you should have the benefit of them, not a third party.

Strangely, there are people on this Forum who do not agree with this statement when it comes to their expectations of other Forum members.

Phil

interesting thread / can of worms

the young lad in question must have been up very sharp to miss the $50 bargains, every fair i've ever attended in the last 40 years they would have gone like lightning at those prices.

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

Strangely, there are people on this Forum who do not agree with this statement when it comes to their expectations of other Forum members.

Phil

thats a shame phil, new here, surely we should all respect the choices others make within this community.

i'll be the odd one out in the voting.
i do very little 'dealing' now but from dealer A i paid £15 on a badge i sold immediately for £75, the next week i give him £25 saying 'i did well out of it' With dealer B i paid £80 for two Warwick HG for myself. later i offered and sold them on ebay (to a forum veteran!) for £160 when i was a bit skint. I didn't spot the dealer that time and i'd happily buy them back for more now.

my point is, just play fair, its not hard

and it has its own rewards