Battledress Shoulder Title Colours

[Bill A]

I am doing research on cloth shoulder titles, and I am interested in finding the significance or reasons for the colours used in the battledress shoulder titles. For example, the colours in the large pattern title for the QOCHC is reflective of the colours found in the regimental tartan. What is the significance behind the colours on battledress flashes for other regiments?

[Voltigeur]

Bill,well for Regiment de Maisonneuve (Gold and Blue) and the Fusiliers Mont-Royal Gold and Scarlet) those are the Regimental colours used for the titles.And, I think the Marroon/Withe/Red of the Chaudires are Regimental colours also.
Is that what looking for?
Jo

[Bill A]

Jo, Good start. I am going to put this into the research for the shoulder titles, proabably start with a spread sheet. Identifying the reason for the colours is the purpose. Why did the Chaud's wear white marroon, and red? I would suspect that the gold and blue of the R de Mais is associated with the original colours of the French royalty?
Again, to speculate, the 19 Alberta Dragoons use yellow on green. Is this connected with their history as a recce regiment in WW2, and thus with the colours of the British Reconnaisance Corps?

[Voltigeur]

Another point, Bill. It could be that when they chose regimental colours (to order their Coloured Field Service Caps), they had some unit officers sit down and decide which colour(s) they wanted (or looked nice, or thought was traditional to the unit.....).If I'm not mistaken no such thing existed before 2nd WW as regimental colours* and, maybe just maybe,Bill you are right in thinking that the canadian units overseas paired, with british units, chose something connected with their british cousins.....???

*Except different facing colours on parade uniforms.

Jo

[Bill A]

This was discussed by Clive, either earlier on this forum or on another site. Clive was of the opinion that there was not necessarily a correlation between the FSC colours and the shoulder titles. Scrolling through the catalogue on Clive's site there certainly seems to be a relationship between some of the FSC and the colours on the shoulder titles, but there is not an absolute rule. For example, the Fort Garry's FSC incorporates the main colours used on the shoulder title. While, on the other hand, units like the RCR and PPCLI do not appear to have a correlation.

[Voltigeur]

Maybe by having a look at units war diaries we could have the begining of an idea how they arrived at a decision?
Jo

[servicepub]

Bill, Good on ya for pursuing this. Allow me to share some thoughts and observations. Initial, approved, shoulder titles for the British Army were primarily white on red. Could one assume that red was the colour for line infantry and was a natural choice. As you know the PPCLI were permitted to wear a coloured shouloder title during the First World War - although this may have more to do with the overwhelming number of former Brit soldiers that were specifically recruited for this unit.
By mid-WWII when HQ started to ask units to supply artwork for coloured shoulder titles HQ made no effort to guide the units involved - and this was done on purpose I believe. In some formations (1 Div) the shape was standardized as the truncated oval into which the regiment had to fit its name while in other formations the unit was given free reign.
In my studies of the CFSC I have noted that there is a preponderence for dark blue caps (see comments on Facings, below) with red highlights (piping, peak and/or crown) while others became very colourful. Some colours were chosen because they were the colours of the camp flag (and these colours go back far enoough into a unit's history that we may never determine why they were initially chosen) while other CFSC colours were a direct copy of their Allied (British) regiment. In the case of the Regt de Ste-Hyacinthe they changed colours of their CFSC FOUR times in five years with the last choice matching their shoulder titles (or vice versa) i.e. Sand drab and Forest green.
As can be seen by the artwork supplied to HQ, most submissions were accepted with little change and hardly any mention about the suitability of the colours chosen - One exception was when the Midland Regiment submitted, tongue-in-cheek, a design to their local MD HQ which read "The Mad Midlanders". The Staff Officer at MD HQ replied in formal military language that the design was not considered suitable.
I would not spend too much time trying to corelate the titles to regimental facings as facings tend to be pretty stadard - Royal Blue for "Royal" regiments, Yellow for most Highland, Green or Black for Rifles, etc.... Certainly, in the Corps, there is a consistency in the useage of colour and this is natural, As the Pay Corps already used Yellow as a distinctive colour on forage cap welts, etc.. why 'invent' a different colour for shoulder titles. This is prevalent with most Corps (The RCE and their special shade of Blue is repeated on their titles).
Anyway, enough rambling - I look forward to the results ofyour research. If I can be of assistance just drop me a line.

[boots and saddles]

Bill, I hope you have the greatest success with your endeavour. there certainly seems to be some relationship between the Regimental colours & the shoulder title & lanyard, It happens too often to be accidental. The St John Fusiliers & the Edmonton Fusiliers come to mind as two others. But perhaps not all of them were so. Luck. Ray

[Bill A]

Thanks guys. Work has already started and I have a pile of LAC docs, about 2 feet or more high that I am wading through. Lots of info.
Clive, your reference to the mandated shape was by the GOC 2 CID? Not 1 CID. None of the other divs had that much control over the shape and size of the titles.

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Clive, your reference to the mandated shape was by the GOC 2 CID? Not 1 CID.

Bill, You are probably right. I am at the office and my research material isn't. I have no idea where my memory is as I forgot where I last saw it????

[guest_000]

THE PPCLI SHOULDER FLASH was conceived by Gault at LEVIS Quebec 1914 AS HE wished to distiguish the regiment from the British and had the same order of nuns who knitted for Wolfe's highlanders in 1759 produce the first scarlet badges with white lettering for the regiment .

PAUL