6th South African Armoured Division slip ons

[Frank Kelley]

LOL Iain,
Thank you for the pm, no, I am not "pulling your leg" you see lots of badges made like that including shoulder titles to Botha's Natal Horse etc, as well as many others!
I'm off to Buxton for lunch now, but, if you can wait until this afternoon, I will show you something when I get back.
Kind regards Frank

[iaindh]

Well then Frank,

it looks like even stranger things happened in WWI!
We must do an NMR post sometime also! As a matter of interest, I also have the large helmet and smaller beret badge in brass.

kind regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

LOL Iain,
Very clearly Great War GWSA worn by the NMR in their 3rd MR guise, very rare too!
Regards Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
Sorry about that, lunch seemed to last for ever today, I opted for white fish as a main course and decided to risk a bottle of last years South African Chenin Blanc "flying Zebra" actually not bad at all!
The cast shoulder titles worn for a very short time in GWSA are very distinctive, of course, the lugs do differ a great deal, but, all are wire, often of differing guages, what was available, was used, you will find wire that is round, square, of copper and indeed, of brass too.
Moreover, they are, as of a little later, this year, all antiques in their own right!
Kind regards Frank

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

glad you enjoyed your lunch, SA makes some excellent wines and you cannot go wrong in the UK if you do pick an SA wine. I'm not familiar with that label but some are created for export only, rather than using some of the Afrikaans vineyard names which can also be complicated and Poms wont be able to pronounce them
Back to badges; thanks for sharing the BNH title; it certainly looks similar!
Yes, the centenary this year.
Incidentally, a local dealer is selling the numeral "3" worn on the NMR helmet flash, bottom lug broken, for R400 which converts to 22 Squid! There doesnt seem to be the flash with it.....

kind regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Iain,
Sorry about that, lunch seemed to last for ever today, I opted for white fish as a main course and decided to risk a bottle of last years South African Chenin Blanc "flying Zebra" actually not bad at all!
The cast shoulder titles worn for a very short time in GWSA are very distinctive, of course, the lugs do differ a great deal, but, all are wire, often of differing guages, what was available, was used, you will find wire that is round, square, of copper and indeed, of brass too.
Moreover, they are, as of a little later, this year, all antiques in their own right!
Kind regards Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
There is a slight variation in these titles, differing brass and copper, but, not much, yours is a good rare piece, there is a man in your country who has a very fine collection of GWSA, moreover, I'm quite sure he considers it to be the best of it's type to be found anywhere, but, sadly, he is such an objectionable, odious little man, full of his own self importance, that nobody ever gets to see it.
A shame too, as this particular fellow would have just so much to offer, but, there you are, I do have a friend here, who would be able to give him a run for his money though, certainly as far as GWSA goes and between the two of us, could, I think, better him.
Anyway, I do not wish to take loupies thread off topic any further.

Kind regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Frank,

glad you enjoyed your lunch, SA makes some excellent wines and you cannot go wrong in the UK if you do pick an SA wine. I'm not familiar with that label but some are created for export only, rather than using some of the Afrikaans vineyard names which can also be complicated and Poms wont be able to pronounce them
Back to badges; thanks for sharing the BNH title; it certainly looks similar!
Yes, the centenary this year.
Incidentally, a local dealer is selling the numeral "3" worn on the NMR helmet flash, bottom lug broken, for R400 which converts to 22 Squid! There doesnt seem to be the flash with it.....

kind regards, Iain

[loupie1961]

White metal NMR titles and orange tab on a 1945 BD blouse in my possession, I guess a post war issue...

[iaindh]

I should really have posted this under "General" but as there was already a thread on the 6th SAA Div I'll put it here:

Marzabotto.jpg

Marzabotto - An Italian town's appreciation to South African troops for rescuing them from total annihilation after the massacre of it's townspeople by Nazi SS during World War 2.

Today, deep in the heart of Italy’s Apennine mountains between Bologna and the Po valley, in the communities of Castiglione dei Pepoli, Monte Stanco, Grizzana Morandi and the surrounding area local people gather annually not only to celebrate their towns’ emancipation from Nazi forces in the autumn of 1944 by the 6th Armoured Division from South Africa, but even to raise the South African flag in ceremony.

Their gratitude is so great, because this area was the site of the biggest, yet least-known, massacre of innocent civilians in Italy during WWII: the Marzabotto Massacre.

It was an exceptionally bleak atrocity for Italy, as it involved the extinction of an entire ‘race’- on 3 October 1944, German and Austrian SS troops were ordered to purge the entire area of Monte Sole and Monte Ruminci, because the townspeople of Marzabotto, Grizzana Morandi, and Monzuno were suspected of helping and supplying Italian partisans along the Gothic Line, which Hitler himself had ordered to be kept at all costs to sever south Italy and Allied forces from the industrialised and developed north.

Here Allied and Austrian SS forces saw out the last winter of WWII, tired, cold, depleted, neither able to advance or retreat. Here is where the Allies eventually broke through the following Spring, spelling the end of the war in Italy. Before that, Nazi troops literally marched into every town and exterminated every living thing in sight. Women, children, young babies and the elderly alike were killed by gunfire and with grenades.

By sunset 3 October, Marzabotto’s and Monzuno’s unique population of mountain people, nearly two thousand people, were entirely exterminated.

The SS then started moving into Grizzana Morandi and Monte Stanco herding the townspeople into two groups in no particular order. The first group (half the population) were slaughtered that night, the remaining group was to be executed the next morning.

On 4 October 1944, the executions had already started, when out of nowhere a group of Allied soldiers who had been sent to patrol and scout the area, unaware of the purge, appeared and engaged the SS in combat. After a long battle they managed to drive the Nazis off well behind the Gothic Line, saving the few remaining people of Monte Sole. This group of soldiers was the 6th Armoured Division of South Africa.

The South Africans had been the first Allied troops to arrive in the area; British, American, New Zealand, Rhodesian, Australian, and Indian troops arrived some three days later from the nearby American base in Livergnago (dubbed ‘Liver & Onions’ by soldiers) with food and supplies for the towns’ afflicted victims and set up Allied camps along what is today one of Italy’s most famous war commemoration sites – the Gothic Line.

Hence, the people of Monte Sole celebrate South Africa every year, because the few survivors (some even today), owed their lives to the 6th Armoured Division.

A new street connecting Castiglionei dei Pepoli and the entire area with the Bologna-Modena highway was unveiled in November last year was named in honour of the South African 6th Armoured Division.

Iain

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
Could you clarify that point, I was of the belief that Austria was actually part of "Greater Germany" at this point in time and did not have an "SS force" though, of course, plenty of Austrians served throughout the German armed forces.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Here Allied and Austrian SS forces saw out the last winter of WWII, tired, cold, depleted, neither able to advance or retreat.

Iain

[Brian Conyngham]

Hi Iain

Nice article. No matter what people say about the Italians they were largely very compassionate people who helped out hundreds of South African and Allied prisoners who had escaped. Many civilians were shot after being found to be assisting the Allies. I have many WW2 POW medal groups and collect the many small booklets published in this country by many a POW in the 1970's and 80'S. These booklets are a weath of info, some well written and others not, but the common thread is always the generosity by the general Italian population.

And of course the main 6th SA Div cemetry is situated at Castiglione, a beautiful spot overlooking the valley, it has been quoted as one of the most beautiful military cemetries in the world. It is immaculately kept with a permanent gardener.

I have a few pictures somewhere will try and dig them out.

Brian

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

this was an article from the internet.
Der Fuhrer SS - VT Standarte was mainly composed of Austrians and was based in Vienna and Klagenfurt.
I dont know if this was the SS unit involved but there were SS units from many countries including the Britische Freikorps.
I'm inclined to agree that Austria was part of Greater Germany.

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Iain,
Could you clarify that point, I was of the belief that Austria was actually part of "Greater Germany" at this point in time and did not have an "SS force" though, of course, plenty of Austrians served throughout the German armed forces.
Regards Frank

[iaindh]

Hi Brian,

I believe most Italians did not want to be involved in the war and resented the Fascists.
I would be interested to see the photos; have you been to Italy?

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Hi Iain

Nice article. No matter what people say about the Italians they were largely very compassionate people who helped out hundreds of South African and Allied prisoners who had escaped. Many civilians were shot after being found to be assisting the Allies. I have many WW2 POW medal groups and collect the many small booklets published in this country by many a POW in the 1970's and 80'S. These booklets are a weath of info, some well written and others not, but the common thread is always the generosity by the general Italian population.

And of course the main 6th SA Div cemetry is situated at Castiglione, a beautiful spot overlooking the valley, it has been quoted as one of the most beautiful military cemetries in the world. It is immaculately kept with a permanent gardener.

I have a few pictures somewhere will try and dig them out.

Brian

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
Okay, so we are talking about Austrians serving in the SS then, how sad, you would have hoped that they would have had more sense, the awful schloser's!
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Frank,

this was an article from the internet.
Der Fuhrer SS - VT Standarte was mainly composed of Austrians and was based in Vienna and Klagenfurt.
I dont know if this was the SS unit involved but there were SS units from many countries including the Britische Freikorps.
I'm inclined to agree that Austria was part of Greater Germany.

regards, Iain

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

I also don't think of Austrians being SS types.

regads, Iain

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Iain,
Okay, so we are talking about Austrians serving in the SS then, how sad, you would have hoped that they would have had more sense, the awful schloser's!
Regards Frank

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
Sadly, there were a hell of a lot of them, including some famous ones, some held high rank such as Franz Augsberger, others like Hans Dorr made a name on the battlefield.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Frank,

I also don't think of Austrians being SS types.

regads, Iain

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

the SS Officer in charge, Sturmbannfuhrer Walter Reder was actually born in the Sudetenland although he died in Vienna after serving a sentence for war crimes.
The SS unit involved was 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS. Interestingly, a part of this unit was at Arnhem during Market Garden.
It was only formed in 1943 but I dont where they were raised. They surrendered to Allied forces near Klagenfurt in Austria; Klagenfurt was also linked to Der Fuhrer SS Division.

In the original post on this subject, it does say German & Austrian SS troops.

"It was an exceptionally bleak atrocity for Italy, as it involved the extinction of an entire ‘race’- on 3 October 1944, German and Austrian SS troops were ordered to purge the entire area of Monte Sole and Monte Ruminci, because the townspeople of Marzabotto, Grizzana Morandi, and Monzuno were suspected of helping and supplying Italian partisans along the Gothic Line, which Hitler himself had ordered to be kept at all costs to sever south Italy and Allied forces from the industrialised and developed north."

regards, Iain