Printed 53rd Welsh div patches

[JerryBB]

These arrived today from a dealers and opinions would be greatly appreciated as I'm not sure on the W patches. All the examples I have seen have the weave running from top left to bottom right and the wavy edge looks different.

Thanks.

[Mike Jackson]

I have seven printed examples - on six of them the weave runs from top left to bottom right. On the seventh it runs from top right to bottom left. I don't much like the "shadowing" effect on the W - giving it a strange three dimensional appearance (as per hull numbers on USN warships)
Mike

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I have seven printed examples - on six of them the weave runs from top left to bottom right. On the seventh it runs from top right to bottom left. I don't much like the "shadowing" effect on the W - giving it a strange three dimensional appearance (as per hull numbers on USN warships)
Mike

Hi Mike, it was both the weave that concerned me and also the "shadowing" effect which is not something I have seen before. Sadly the sellers pics were not great and it was only when they arrived today could I see these areas of concern.

The IWM collection which has quite a few of these does not have any of this type and I also looked at old threads here without success, though there was a thread a while back with a fake printed W shown, but it was on an EBAY link which no longer shows the image.

[JerryBB]

Adding some pictures of the rank insignia as it was suggested that these might be an indicator of this set being good or bad. They are on the wrong way I think, though do look quite well settled into the fabric, but they do not match any of the other rank insignia of this type that I own and look a bit odd IMHO.

[REME245]

For whats it worth its not a pattern I have ever seen before.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by REME245

For whats it worth its not a pattern I have ever seen before.

Thanks for the info, as that is part of the problem, as they do not match the known originals I have seen and sadly the only fakes I can remember the details of are the embroidered types and what the fake printed examples look like I can't remember or find images of.

It also feels to be a thicker base fabric than the other printed patches I have from other units.

In theory I have the right to return them to the seller so if it is a thumbs down I will only lose the postage costs, twice!

Obviously I would rather they were good, but if bad, back they will go.

[Old Smelly]

Could they be 1950s? The titles and pips look to be of that era
Lee

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Old Smelly

Could they be 1950s? The titles and pips look to be of that era
Lee

Thanks Lee and they could be, as the buttons look post war and I don't know what the Welsh Div used later on after they were reactivated, though I have seen embroidered formation patches on a 60's Welsh Div/Welch Regiment BD.

They were sold as being WWII and not postwar, as if they are 50's or later, then the price was too high IMO

[JerryBB]

I contacted the seller who has a no quibble return policy and they will be going back unless some new information appears before Monday.

Thanks to all who contributed or had a look.

[JerryBB]

I have spent a lot of time today looking at formation patches and one thing I noticed was that many Indian formation patches are made of a thicker weave and often have the reversed direction weave, though the 53rd were not in India during WWII or after so that does not make much sense.

I found this pair of said to be original patches on Ebay US, though I am not convinced and they have the shadow effect but in a different direction to the thread starter.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

I have spent a lot of time today looking at formation patches and one thing I noticed was that many Indian formation patches are made of a thicker weave and often have the reversed direction weave, though the 53rd were not in India during WWII or after so that does not make much sense.

I found this pair of said to be original patches on Ebay US, though I am not convinced and they have the shadow effect but in a different direction to the thread starter.

I believe that 53 (W) Inf Div signs are to be found in a greater variety of different styles of manufacture than almost any other British Inf Div of the period. I'm sure there will be others but in my collection I have three varieties of EonF signs, two varieties of a form of so-called silk weave, the printed sign in two variants, one of which has been printed on what looks like Shirt KF material and four examples of signs made up of a red felt "W" stitched to a khaki felt backing. There will be more variants I'm sure, but I have never seen a painted example.
Mike

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I believe that 53 (W) Inf Div signs are to be found in a greater variety of different styles of manufacture than almost any other British Inf Div of the period. I'm sure there will be others but in my collection I have three varieties of EonF signs, two varieties of a form of so-called silk weave, the printed sign in two variants, one of which has been printed on what looks like Shirt KF material and four examples of signs made up of a red felt "W" stitched to a khaki felt backing. There will be more variants I'm sure, but I have never seen a painted example.
Mike

Thanks Mike, I have a pair of the EonF type and a pair of the woven silk type (which were probably made by 'N. V. STOOMBANDFABRIK VAN ENGELEN & EVERS' OF HEEZE, Nederlands) and I have a combined W/RSigs on a promise from a forum member and a plain printed W in the post. I have seen the Stitched Felt type, though don't have one. I know the printed versions come with a lot of different AofS strips and brigade and battalion strips, though yet to get any of them. Like you I have never seen a painted version.

[Mike Jackson]

I should have added that in some cases the red felt "W" was stitched directly onto the BD blouse. There's an IWM photograph showing this practice in 2 Monmouths in 1944.

[JerryBB]

I had an opinion on another forum from someone who only does 53rd Div items and he is happy that the patches are an acceptable period version, though he also thinks it might be on a post war BD.

[Luc]

The shadow occurs when stamp and fabric are not aligned perfectly, see attached example of the Czech armoured brigade formation sign with similar features.