Royal Scots Fusiliers Bronze Badge

[RichardP]

Gentlemen,
Try again with this one. Opinions please. Standard issue RSF gilded/brass (?) officer badge but the front has been bronzed. Have the RSF ever worn bronzed badges or is this a one off, test piece or fake?
Thanks for any help,
Richard

[manchesters]

Richard,

My opinion is that is was originally Gilt but due to neglect/fire/buried or whatever it has becaome coroded giving a bronze appearance.

regards

[Home Guard]

Sure has a nice patina to it anyway.

Terry

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Richard,

My opinion is that is was originally Gilt but due to neglect/fire/buried or whatever it has becaome coroded giving a bronze appearance.

regards

Your opinion is fact. So often we see badges presented which are mistaken as bronzed due to heavy and often corrosive patination.

CB

[3748 Hussar]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Richard,

My opinion is that is was originally Gilt but due to neglect/fire/buried or whatever it has becaome coroded giving a bronze appearance.

regards

Hi Richard, I’m not convinced both parts were originally paired together . If the central device has become corroded why doesn’t the flames and back of the badge have the same corroded look.

I could be totally wrong!!! Just my opinion

3748 Hussar

[Alex Rice]

I would be totally happy with it, a lovely officer's badge which has become tarnished. The brass used for the overlays on these seem to sometimes be different to the grenade so that could explain the slightly different patina.
Cheers,
Alex

[RichardP]

Thanks Gents for your prompt replies. I just wonder if their is some sort of test I could do to find out what metal is on the front? If it is just tarnished perhaps a light rubbing might work.
Thanks again for the input.
Richard

[cbuehler]

It is standard "gilding metal", an alloy of varying composition used on all badges, including ORs, in the past. For officers, they had gilt plating over this base metal, which was very thin and wore off to varying degrees over time with polishing etc. There is no gilt remaining on the obverse of your badge, which is strange in that usually some remains in the little nooks and crannies. A small amount is still visible on the reverse however.
I have seen quite a few badges attain this bronze appearance over the years, just what the badge was exposed to that resulted in this I do not know; likely some sort of chemical reaction. But this is one of the more extreme examples I have seen.
I would surmise that a substantial amount of cleaning and polishing would be needed to brighten up this badge, but again, it would be the base GM and not the original gilt plate as a result.
Perhaps a light cleaning with soap and water, then leave as is would be best in this case. Just my opinion at any rate.

CB

[dubaiguy]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

It is standard "gilding metal", an alloy of varying composition used on all badges, including ORs, in the past. For officers, they had gilt plating over this base metal, which was very thin and wore off to varying degrees over time with polishing etc. There is no gilt remaining on the obverse of your badge, which is strange in that usually some remains in the little nooks and crannies. A small amount is still visible on the reverse however.
I have seen quite a few badges attain this bronze appearance over the years, just what the badge was exposed to that resulted in this I do not know; likely some sort of chemical reaction. But this is one of the more extreme examples I have seen.
I would surmise that a substantial amount of cleaning and polishing would be needed to brighten up this badge, but again, it would be the base GM and not the original gilt plate as a result.
Perhaps a light cleaning with soap and water, then leave as is would be best in this case. Just my opinion at any rate.

CB

I'd assumed it was a reaction to, or a coating of nicotine. Over the years I too have had several ''nicotine bronzed'' badges - if indeed that's what caused the bronzing effect.

Anyway here is a similar ''bronzed'' example I happened to have in my photo files that also foxed me in my early collecting days.
Mark

[manchesters]

Are you joking???

[dubaiguy]

No......?

I've had in the past a couple of boards of badges bought at auction where every gilding badge had developed a very rich deep bronzed appearance. None had any mottling or the speckling of black corrosion spots that is sometimes seen on badges stored in a damp environment.

I had made an assumption and it is just that, that they were perhaps exposed to something over a fair amount of time before being stored. I thought heavy cigarette smoke a likely candidate. The resultant reaction with dampness producing a very smooth deep brown patination almost like a bronze coating on an officer's badge.

My thinking was based on stained horse brasses in smokey pubs.

Certainly I don't think the badge in post 1 has been in a fire or buried....

If you mean am I joking about the Hampshire badge. I see the photo doesn't show the patination very well. It was quite dark and smooth in hand. Long sold on I think, but yes when I started on my collecting journey I wondered why it had been bronzed.
Mark

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by RichardP

Gentlemen,
Try again with this one. Opinions please. Standard issue RSF gilded/brass (?) officer badge but the front has been bronzed. Have the RSF ever worn bronzed badges or is this a one off, test piece or fake?
Thanks for any help,
Richard

I think it might well be a warrant officers badge. There were usually three patterns of badge. The officers of high quality and usually gilt. The warrant officers in the same design, but made of gilding metal that is then relatively thinly plated. Finally the ranks below that is of a different design and also made from gilding metal but without any plating. The warrant officers badges often lost their plating due to the polishing habit typically inculcated in men raised up the ranks. Badges of the officers quality were made of such rich metal that they did not usually tarnish unless severely abused in some way, not just through being left in a box or drawer. The mounted element of the badge (coat of arms) was usually also of better quality than that on your tarnished badge.

[cbuehler]

I would have to disagree somewhat in that officer's badges were of better quality than those used by WO or senior NCOs. They MAY be so, but it was also the other way around. There was nothing to stop an RSM from wearing the finest badge made and a parsimonious officer wearing a cheaper lower quality badge in any regiment. The Gordons as an example; plated badges used to be described as NCO and solid silver or hallmarked as officer. A complete fallacy. All such badges being private purchase by so many makers of course negates this.

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

I would have to disagree somewhat in that officer's badges were of better quality than those used by WO or senior NCOs. They MAY be so, but it was also the other way around. There was nothing to stop an RSM from wearing the finest badge made and a parsimonious officer wearing a cheaper lower quality badge in any regiment. The Gordons as an example; plated badges used to be described as NCO and solid silver or hallmarked as officer. A complete fallacy. All such badges being private purchase by so many makers of course negates this.

CB

Yes there are always exceptions I agree, as with life in general. I was talking about accepted norms and how the system was intended to work. Nevertheless, in most smart regular regiments where discipline was strict protocols and regulations were more usually observed. A lot changed during the course of both world wars that led to mass recruitment of civilians over a short space of time who were more than happy to kick over the traces and bend, or even flout rules if they could get away with it. Nonetheless, we’re splitting hairs in the context of the OP’s query and I was referring to the intended use of the different badges, which in fairness I think was fairly obvious.

Enclosed are plated badges of lesser quality (i.e. WO type) where tarnishing is well underway. There’s no doubt that later badges could be of quite poor quality as can be seen here.

[cbuehler]

With all due respect, I think the badges shown in your last post show rather more excessive polishing than poor quality. I have a suspicion that an orficer bloke's batman would proceed with polishing and shining any and every article of dress, whether it was required or not, with perhaps some undesired results.

CB