Bodill Request

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

We seem to have a bit more evidence in support of Bodill Parker producing (cap?) badges for war work... from the 1918 Directory of Manufacturers in Engineering and Allied Trades (courtesy of Grac'e Guide):

Attachment 268344

JT

Interestingly shown as B & P.

regards

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Interestingly shown as B & P.

regards

So it does. I hadn't spotted that.

A typo perhaps?

JT

[Jelly Terror]

One thing niggling away at me... of all the known cap badge makers I am finding in these directories etc., listed as being manufacturers of badges, accoutrements etc., each have descriptions which clearly state that they are makers of military badges, whereas I have, as yet, seen no such description in relation to Bodill Parker. For example: with regard to two randomly-selected makers (Jennens, and Firmin), from the '1918 Directory of Manufacturers in Engineering and Allied Trades':

'JENNENS & CO., Ltd., Manufacturers of Helmets, Badges, Buttons, &c., 56, Conduit Street, London, W., and Deritend, Birmingham. Hours of Business: 9 a.m. to 6.30 p.m.; Saturdays, close at 1 p.m. Established in 1760 by Charles Jennens. Continued by the same family since foundation. Incorporated as a Limited Company in 1912. Directors: William Jennens, Lionel Kerr Jennens and Keith Jennens. Specialities: Helmets, Cuirasses and every description of Metal Badges, &c., worn in the Army; also Metal Buttons generally. Connection: United Kingdom, India, Colonial and America. Royal Warrants: Special appointment to H.M. The King. Held appointments to His late Majesty King Edward, and to Her late Majesty Queen Victoria. Telephone: No. 36 Mayfair, London. Telegraphic Address: " Miloman, Reg, London." Bankers: Union of London and Smiths Bank, Ltd. (Argyll Place).'

'FIRMIN & SONS, Ltd., Naval and Military Button and Ornament Manufacturers, Woollen and Trimming Warehousemen, 108 and 109, St. Martin's Lane, Charing Cross, London, W.C. West End Branch: 6, Warwick Street, Regent Street, W. Established about 1700 by Nathaniel Firmin. Incorporated as a Limited Company in 1875. Specialities: Buttons, Ornaments, Accoutrements, Gold and Silver Lace and Embroidery for Officers of the Army, Navy, and Auxiliary Forces. *Staff: About fifty in the showrooms; exclusive of a large number of factory employes. Connection: World-wide. Royal Warrant Holders to His late Majesty King Edward VII. and to H.M. King George V. Contractors to the Government, Foreign Navies, Railway Companies, Police Forces, Fire Brigades, &c. Telephones: No. 1377 Central for St. Martin's Lane; and No. 1145) Central, Warwick Street. Telegraphic Address: " Firmin, London." '

Even F. E. Woodward, is listed as being a maker of 'Military Ornaments', both before and during the war.

Perhaps 'Ticker' has a point when he says ' “Badges, Metal”, some of which may, or may not, have been cap badges.’

JT

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello JT

Firstly, my apologies for not responding sooner, but I struggle sometimes to keep up with things and, to be frank, have not yet had an opportunity to fully take in all the postings on this thread. Though clearly, as ever, you ask enquiring and pertinent questions, and, moreover never just take things lying down and accept what others say, but investigate matters yourself with interesting results. I too was always taught to challenge things, checking cited sources and, if possible, looking into things myself. There certainly seem to be some worthwhile contribution here, offering insights into this particular manufacturer.

You have already noted all the caveats I pointed out with regards to the information I posted up on my ‘The Board of Trade Labour Gazette: Lists of Contracts Awarded, 1914-1919’ thread way back in 2011 (is it really that long ago!). I have never claimed that the lists were specifically for cap badge makers, rather, as it says on the tin, the lists are for firms to whom contracts were give to produce metal badges. My personal understanding was that these could have been any kind of military badge made of metal, so as well as cap badges I have always took this to mean things like wounded stripes and Imperial Service badges. As I have little knowledge of what other kinds of military badges would have been made during the Great War, I can’t say what else might have qualified to be described as “Badges, Metal”, but I dare say others on here could offer suggestions.

In any event shortly after compiling the information from the various issues of The Board of Trade Labour Gazette, covering the years 1914-1919, I began drawing up supplementary lists of information taken from appropriate trade directories. The intention was to give information on what these companies were making at the time, which was often not related to military accoutrement. This is the work to which Luke referred in his posting here (I am still in the middle of formulating a long reply to your e-mails Luke, so please bear with me!), and is something that I have been meaning to put on the Forum. Regrettably personal circumstances (yes that old chestnut) prevented me from completing things at the time, and, given so many years have passed, I now need to find the time to sit down and go over everything again before doing so.

Nevertheless, what I have for Bodill Parker & Co. Limited I will set out below. This is a composite of their entry in the 1915 Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) and additional details taken from the same directory for 1920; such extra information being shown in italics and within square brackets. As it has been so long since I did this I intend to check things against the original directory entries as soon as I can, particularly the 1920 one, given this would appear to answer your question:

Bodill Parker & Co. Limited, cabinet & general brass
founders, manufacturers of the “Bopark” specialities, &
of patent steel & brass sail & sacking eyelets & “Grommet’s”
sail thimbles, fancy chair nails, play pipes, garden
syringes, curtain & tent hooks, castors (all kinds), rug
mounts &c. [& military & naval ornament manufacturers,]
Albion works, Great Hampton row [Birmingham]. T A “Bodills,
Birmingham;” T N 2,260 Central

Best regards

Martin

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hello JT

Firstly, my apologies for not responding sooner, but I struggle sometimes to keep up with things and, to be frank, have not yet had an opportunity to fully take in all the postings on this thread. Though clearly, as ever, you ask enquiring and pertinent questions, and, moreover never just take things lying down and accept what others say, but investigate matters yourself with interesting results. I too was always taught to challenge things, checking cited sources and, if possible, looking into things myself. There certainly seem to be some worthwhile contribution here, offering insights into this particular manufacturer.

You have already noted all the caveats I pointed out with regards to the information I posted up on my ‘The Board of Trade Labour Gazette: Lists of Contracts Awarded, 1914-1919’ thread way back in 2011 (is it really that long ago!). I have never claimed that the lists were specifically for cap badge makers, rather, as it says on the tin, the lists are for firms to whom contracts were give to produce metal badges. My personal understanding was that these could have been any kind of military badge made of metal, so as well as cap badges I have always took this to mean things like wounded stripes and Imperial Service badges. As I have little knowledge of what other kinds of military badges would have been made during the Great War, I can’t say what else might have qualified to be described as “Badges, Metal”, but I dare say others on here could offer suggestions.

In any event shortly after compiling the information from the various issues of The Board of Trade Labour Gazette, covering the years 1914-1919, I began drawing up supplementary lists of information taken from appropriate trade directories. The intention was to give information on what these companies were making at the time, which was often not related to military accoutrement. This is the work to which Luke referred in his posting here (I am still in the middle of formulating a long reply to your e-mails Luke, so please bear with me!), and is something that I have been meaning to put on the Forum. Regrettably personal circumstances (yes that old chestnut) prevented me from completing things at the time, and, given so many years have passed, I now need to find the time to sit down and go over everything again before doing so.

Nevertheless, what I have for Bodill Parker & Co. Limited I will set out below. This is a composite of their entry in the 1915 Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) and additional details taken from the same directory for 1920; such extra information being shown in italics and within square brackets. As it has been so long since I did this I intend to check things against the original directory entries as soon as I can, particularly the 1920 one, given this would appear to answer your question:

Bodill Parker & Co. Limited, cabinet & general brass
founders, manufacturers of the “Bopark” specialities, &
of patent steel & brass sail & sacking eyelets & “Grommet’s”
sail thimbles, fancy chair nails, play pipes, garden
syringes, curtain & tent hooks, castors (all kinds), rug
mounts &c. [& military & naval ornament manufacturers,]
Albion works, Great Hampton row [Birmingham]. T A “Bodills,
Birmingham;” T N 2,260 Central

Best regards

Martin

Martin,

Many thanks indeed for, yet again, taking the time to share your findings.

The 1920 entry seems to have taken us closer still to establishing that Bodill Parker, in addition to the myriad metal products it was churning out, was also manufacturing cap badges.

I take your point as to what else might have qualified as 'Badges, Meatal'; it would seem obvious and logical to conclude from this that it meant cap, collar, rank badges etc. It might be a fool's errand to overthink it and attempt to define and analyse it all down to atomic level. But would sitting back and accepting it as conclusive without having exhausted all avenues be the right thing to do? I suppose that is down to the individual - a great deal of badge-ology seems necessarily to be dependent upon opinion, and nothing wrong with that, of course. Not everything can be settled by slapping the relevant government contract, maker's catalogue or Army order down on the debate table.

Tying all this in with the 'BP&Co' mark is proving to be an interesting journey. At this point in the proceedings, it looks more than likely that Bodill produced cap badges (I cannot think of a reason why it would not have done) but with further resources still untapped and avenues to explore, a conclusive answer may still be out there.

Brilliant stuff as always, chaps. Many thanks.

JT

[KLR]

I apologise, I got the wrong title on my (1917) Lpl Pals badges

it should be B P & Co LD.B'HAM the o and the D should be in superscript.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi JT

I have today checked my composite entry for Bodill Parker & Co. Limited from the 1915 and 1920 Birmingham trade directories, which I posted above, against the actual directory entries themselves, finding that my composite is correct, and that the only difference between the two years is the addition of “& military & naval ornament manufacturers,” to that of 1920.

For completeness I have now made up some images showing the actual entries from the directories in question, as well as from that for 1928. Please note that I do not personally have ready access to any directories for the intervening years, though, if my memory serves me right, the coverage at the old Birmingham Central Library was pretty complete for the period, the volumes of which should now be in The Library of Birmingham, should anyone wish to check the entries in any other years.

The first set of images is from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) for 1915, and has three columns representing relevant entries from the Commercial, Trades and Streets sections of the Directory, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker & Co. Limited”, p. 592, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (full listing), p. 1051, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 161:

1915.jpg

The next set is from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) for 1920, and, again, has three columns from the different sections of the Directory, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker & Co. Limited”, p. 618, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (in full), p. 1087, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 164:

1920.jpg

The final images are from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (With Its Suburbs) and Smethwick for 1928, once more with three columns from the Commercial, Trades and Streets sections, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker (1922) Limited”, p. 749, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (again in full), p. 1319, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 190:

1928.jpg

I completely agree with your comments on “badge-ology”, and you should certainly not just sit back and let things go unchallenged but should indeed explore every possible avenue in trying to establish things. As to finding conclusive evidence that Bodill Parker made cap badges, my personal view is this could only be done if the company have records of things (though by now such might well have been lost or destroyed), or that actual contracts to the firm turn up at Kew (a few years ago I looked through their catalogue trying to find such, but, unable to physically travel down, my searches proved inconclusive in this regard).

As an aside, and not wishing to throw this thread of course, I spotted the attached advertisement today in the back of the 1920 Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick), in ‘Birmingham Advertisements’ p. 28:

Vaughtons.jpg

I know that Vaughtons marked their lapel badges, like the special constable one illustrated, but am not aware of there being any cap badges with their name on them, yet a ‘Royal Berkshire’ example is clearly shown – something to ponder over perhaps?

Best regards

Martin

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi JT

I have today checked my composite entry for Bodill Parker & Co. Limited from the 1915 and 1920 Birmingham trade directories, which I posted above, against the actual directory entries themselves, finding that my composite is correct, and that the only difference between the two years is the addition of “& military & naval ornament manufacturers,” to that of 1920.

For completeness I have now made up some images showing the actual entries from the directories in question, as well as from that for 1928. Please note that I do not personally have ready access to any directories for the intervening years, though, if my memory serves me right, the coverage at the old Birmingham Central Library was pretty complete for the period, the volumes of which should now be in The Library of Birmingham, should anyone wish to check the entries in any other years.

The first set of images is from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) for 1915, and has three columns representing relevant entries from the Commercial, Trades and Streets sections of the Directory, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker & Co. Limited”, p. 592, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (full listing), p. 1051, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 161:

Attachment 268408

The next set is from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) for 1920, and, again, has three columns from the different sections of the Directory, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker & Co. Limited”, p. 618, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (in full), p. 1087, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 164:

Attachment 268409

The final images are from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (With Its Suburbs) and Smethwick for 1928, once more with three columns from the Commercial, Trades and Streets sections, i.e. the ‘Birmingham Professional and Commercial Directory’, alphabetical entry for “Bodill Parker (1922) Limited”, p. 749, the ‘Birmingham Trades & Professions Directory’, listings for “Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers” (again in full), p. 1319, and the ‘Birmingham Street Directory’, entry showing “Albion Works” on Great Hampton Row, p. 190:

Attachment 268410

I completely agree with your comments on “badge-ology”, and you should certainly not just sit back and let things go unchallenged but should indeed explore every possible avenue in trying to establish things. As to finding conclusive evidence that Bodill Parker made cap badges, my personal view is this could only be done if the company have records of things (though by now such might well have been lost or destroyed), or that actual contracts to the firm turn up at Kew (a few years ago I looked through their catalogue trying to find such, but, unable to physically travel down, my searches proved inconclusive in this regard).

As an aside, and not wishing to throw this thread of course, I spotted the attached advertisement today in the back of the 1920 Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (Including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick), in ‘Birmingham Advertisements’ p. 28:

Attachment 268411

I know that Vaughtons marked their lapel badges, like the special constable one illustrated, but am not aware of there being any cap badges with their name on them, yet a ‘Royal Berkshire’ example is clearly shown – something to ponder over perhaps?

Best regards

Martin

Martin,

Super stuff, as usual. Thank you very much indeed.

Just a provisional query right now; I’ll digest your info thoroughly tomorrow after a decent night’s kip… all this Bodill malarkey is making me go a bit accoutremental.

Am I right in saying that each of your first three images are composites, each containing three columns from separate sections of the relevant publication, and that Bodill Parker is only listed under ‘Naval & Military Ornament Manufacturers’, in the second image, that being from Kelly’s Directory of Birmingham (including the Suburbs and the Borough of Smethwick) for 1920? Have I understood that correctly?

Cheers for now,

JT

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi JT

Yes each of the images in my posting are composites of the three different sections, i.e. the Commercial, Trades and Streets ones, of each of the three volumes of trade directories for 1915, 1920 and 1928. You are also correct in that it is only that for 1920 where we find Bodill, Parker & Co. Limited listed in that part for ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufactures’, their name being absent under the equivalent headings in the 1915 and 1928 directories.

It is also only in the 1920 directory where they have added “& military & naval ornament manufacturers,” to their listing in the Commercial section, this not being present in the 1915 one and gone by the directory of 1928. Someone would need to check other years to see exactly when this first appeared, post-1915, and when it was removed, pre-1928. As will be seen there is no mention of this in the Streets section entry, which is not surprising given its brevity.

Finally, looking at things again I see whilst making up the composite images I inadvertently cut off the bottom three company names from the 1920 ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufactures’ listing, so I’ve put together a new image, this time of the three entries from the Trades sections of all three directories, just to show the difference here between the companies listed, which in itself is very interesting (note Wilkins, Wise and Woolley, which I cut off before from the 1920 list, are definitely not in the 1928 one for some reason):

1915-1920-1928.jpg

Best regards

Martin

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

Hi JT

Yes each of the images in my posting are composites of the three different sections, i.e. the Commercial, Trades and Streets ones, of each of the three volumes of trade directories for 1915, 1920 and 1928. You are also correct in that it is only that for 1920 where we find Bodill, Parker & Co. Limited listed in that part for ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufactures’, their name being absent under the equivalent headings in the 1915 and 1928 directories.

It is also only in the 1920 directory where they have added “& military & naval ornament manufacturers,” to their listing in the Commercial section, this not being present in the 1915 one and gone by the directory of 1928. Someone would need to check other years to see exactly when this first appeared, post-1915, and when it was removed, pre-1928. As will be seen there is no mention of this in the Streets section entry, which is not surprising given its brevity.

Finally, looking at things again I see whilst making up the composite images I inadvertently cut off the bottom three company names from the 1920 ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufactures’ listing, so I’ve put together a new image, this time of the three entries from the Trades sections of all three directories, just to show the difference here between the companies listed, which in itself is very interesting (note Wilkins, Wise and Woolley, which I cut off before from the 1920 list, are definitely not in the 1928 one for some reason):

Attachment 268534

Best regards

Martin

Martin,

Many thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure I had it right (don't get old, mate ).