Governor Genera'ls Foot Guards

[2747andy]

Is this a collar badge or rank star? If a collar Offr's or OR's?

Wm 31 x 25 mm.

Thanks in advance

Andy

[John S.]

2747andy:
As a former member of the GGFG, I can say that what you have is a GGFG SNCO`s collar badge, as used up until the late 1930`s. I have also seen these made in brass, but believe that those were current before 1920. Definately not a rank star. Officers collars are of approximately the same size, but the star points are of a different pattern. Both officer and SNCO collars have the cross cut out and backed by a blue enamel backing only.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
John S.

[2747andy]

John,
spot on! Many thanks for the info!

Best regards - Andy

[Moe RCNR]

John S.

Could you possibly post a photo of WWII GGFG officer collars, if available?

Have been looking for a pair of WWII officer collars to the GGFG for a considerable time now, with no luck. I am presuming that WWII officer collars are similar to the photos posted in this thread, with the difference in the star points along with the addition of blue enamel that you mentioned.

Thanks for any help.

Moe.

[servicepub]

After 1932 all officers' badges used the latin motto (Civitas et Princips Cura Nostra) in lieu of the regimental title.
Clive

[John S.]

MOE RCNR:
Unfortunately, I cannot post a photo of an Officers GGFG collar badge.
Let me say that the shape of the Officer collar badge would have been the same as the GGFG small size Officers hat badge illustrated in Thompsons` Cap Badges of the Canadian Army 1953-1973. Please refer here to Q36b, which shows the Officers small size hat badge. It has a pierced annulus, as well as pierced cross, with the blue enamel backing hilighting this. That badge would have been worn by Officers possibly up to the mobilization of the Regiment on May 31, 1940. In the Regimental history is a photo of GGFG Officers in Field Service Dress dated Sept 1940. Not one of them is wearing a collar badge, wheras a photo of HQ Coy pers taken again in Sept 1940 shows several Officers wearing collar badges. The difference in this photo is that all pers are wearing summer drill uniforms. This therefore raises the question was Officer collar badges allowed for wear on summer drill uniforms by perhaps older Officers who possessed them?? At this point, I can only speculate, but for the balance of WWII, I`m convinced that all Officers of the 1st BN GGFG did not wear collar badges on their FSD uniforms.
Clive is correct to point out that the annulus motto changed to Latin in 1932. I believe that older Officers continued to wear collar badges with the abbreviated
Regt`l title, up to 1940, and that the small size beret hat badge with this abbreviated Regt`l title was worn throughout WWII, and that the latin motto version only came out or was taken into use generally only some time after WWII. Unfortunately, I donot have a date when this might have happened, but I feel this might be sometime in the 1950`s.
I hope that the above info might be of some use.
Cheers,
John S.

[GregN]

Hi Andy, John, Clive and Moe. Attached is a image from my album with the GGFG's Cap/Collar badges. Mazeas calls the smaller badges collars but I think this regiment followed British Guards traditions and the smaller badges are actually caps. I'm hoping you can confirm this.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=21549

Regards,

Greg

[DavidS]

If it's of use in the debate, Thompson has both large (1 13/16" x 1 7/16") O.R. and small (1 1/2" x 1") officers badges shown in Cap Badges and Insignia of the Canadian Army 1953-1973, and says "No collars authorized".

[servicepub]

Greg's photos shown at http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=21549 may well be pre-1932 collar badges which ended up being worn as beret badges when the GGFG assumed an armoured role in WW2. As John pointed out, even though the regimental title was replaced by the regimental motto, existing badges continued to be worn. Certainly, in the 1950s and 60s no collar badges were worn on Service Dress. This may be the result of exposure to the British Coldstream Guards during the war when we learned that they did not wear any.
Below are a few badges from my collection as well as a WW2 photo of a GGFG Major in Khaki Drill. Note that he wears collar badges (and just visible, a red plume on his Hawley helmet). His KD is properly regimental in that his buttons are worn in pairs and his breast pockets are 'patch' style and not pleated.

[servicepub]

As can be seen by the photo of the two Second World War officers in berets, there was a lack of uniformity. One wears a collar badge as his beret badge while the other wears the badge usually worn on the Service Dress cap.

The Lt-Col from the 1930s wears the full-size officer's badge on his Service Dress cap and the Lt-Col in Khaki forage cap wears the collar/beret badge which seems to have been the norm during and immediately after the SWW.

Note the use of brass rank badges. This is in keeping with Guard's tradition.

[Moe RCNR]

Thank you everyone for the information. It's much appreciated.
Moe

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by servicepub

As can be seen by the photo of the two Second World War officers in berets, there was a lack of uniformity. One wears a collar badge as his beret badge while the other wears the badge usually worn on the Service Dress cap.

The Lt-Col from the 1930s wears the full-size officer's badge on his Service Dress cap and the Lt-Col in Khaki forage cap wears the collar/beret badge which seems to have been the norm during and immediately after the SWW.

Note the use of brass rank badges. This is in keeping with Guard's tradition.

S.P.
the Khaki one is the "Service Dress Cap" and the Black One with braided peak is the "Forage Cap".

Nice photos - Andy