Irish Militia Button Makers Confirmation?

[Roy]

Hello again Chaps,

Okay so here is another recent addition and what a nightmare to photograph this little beauty is turning out to be.

Anyway I have no reference as yet on Irish Militia buttons (but have purchased a few of late). This one is to the 1st Monaghan Militia and I believe is a Georgian Coatee button. Small at just 17.3mm and I'm not sure of the finish.

The back mark is difficult for me to read so if someone could confirm that would be grand. I think it says: 'W. Jones Cork Hill Dublin The King’s Button Maker'.?

Of course any other details would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, Roy.

[Cribyn]

Hello Roy

Irish Militia is something of a specialist subject within button collecting and tends to be a very expensive one too!

You do indeed have a very early Georgian Militia button to the Monaghan Militia. This is the first pattern button they wore and the "1" on the button is their precedence number and clearly dates this button to between about 1793 and 1833 when the precedence system was re-organised and the Monaghan Militia were given a new precedence number of "121". I believe they held this title until they became the 5th Royal Irish Fusiliers in 1881. No doubt one of our Irish experts will put me right if I have sent you down the wrong path in terms of precedence!

That's a wonderful backmark you have on that button, Roy. I would suggest it reads "The King's Button Maker" (I guess you just mistyped!). It is not a backmark I have seen before. There was a button maker W Jones but he was London based and I do not know of any Dublin connection. I will do a little digging.

By the way, if you intend going for Irish Militia buttons in a big way look out for "Buttons of the Irish Militia 1793-1881" by J McDonnell - long out of print but copies do turn up in the usual places from time to time.

Roger

[Roy]

Hi Roger,

Wonderful information as always and very much appreciated.

The back marks on these buttons can be one of the most interesting areas to study and enjoy (thanks for the typo heads up - now corrected).

Another book to look out for then and I will surely take your advice. Although I don't specifically intend to focus on Irish Militia buttons per-se, I am open to any militia button, so will attempt to grab those that peek my interest. A little diversity it not a bad thing. As of writing I have one more Irish example and two more on the way, so keep your eyes peeled as I will be happy to share them in due course.

Nice to find out this one is potentially very early.

Cheers, Roy.

[John Mulcahy]

The button maker is almost certainly Edward Jones, 2 Cork Hill, Dublin.

Active at least between 1815 and 1832

Search the "The Gentleman and Citizen's Almanack" on Google free e-books and you will see them listed as button manufacturers

Roger has the lineage right and this button can be said to be dated to pre mid 1830's.

5 R.I.F. was disbanded 31st July 1908.


John

[Roy]

Thanks John,

As this button states 'W' Jones, I wonder if the 'E' (Jones) you mention was the son and carried on the business later? Pure speculation on my part.

Cheers, Roy.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Roy

Thanks John,

As this button states 'W' Jones, I wonder if the 'E' (Jones) you mention was the son and carried on the business later? Pure speculation on my part.

Cheers, Roy.

Roy

you may well be right , which if true, would allow you to refine the dates even more to something like 1793 - pre-1815 (if E Jones had taken over the business, it should be possible to see if both co-existed).

I had a quick look and by the 1830's Hugh Foley (a not uncommon Irish early button back mark) seems to have taken the premises at 2 Cork Hill

John

[Roy]

Hello John,

Thank you for your thoughts. It certainly seems a reasonable assumption (although unproved) that Mr W Jones may have been the senior (father/uncle etc) with the business being passed down and taken over by Edward Jones at a later date.

If Rogers comments on the design of the button are correct and that it is an early pattern (the first pattern) then that would fit in with an earlier business.

As I am a novice at button collecting and know almost nothing specifically about Irish buttons or their makers, the question that I'm intrigued to ask is; has anyone ever seen this exact makers mark before?

If amongst the more knowledgable collectors, there is no prior recollection of this 'W Jones' mark and dare I say it this example is the only known one (I know that's a leap), then I wonder if it is a significantly important discovery?

Roy.

[John Mulcahy]

Roy

William and Edward appear to have been in business together.

I found the attached from Saunders's News-Letter 13 October 1820.

There are also multiple advertisements and reports of both together in the Dublin Evening News. Thus back to the general period 1793-1833 for now.

John

[Roy]

Hi John,

Wonderful research, thank you and well done. Something I had not considered!

It is intriguing that the mark only related to William i.e. 'W' and not 'W & E'. It begs the question, was the business started as a partnership? Or was it started by William, who later took in Edward? The later explaining why this button has the mark 'W Jones'.

I'm still intrigued to know if anyone has seen this exact makers mark before?

Cheers, Roy.

[Cribyn]

Hello Roy

A very nice piece of detective work by John seems to have provided a lot of the answers. It may even be possible to find out whether William and Edward were father and son or even brothers.

I did a little bit of digging last night but the only reference to your backmark came up on this site - http://theirishgrenadier.com/ - in respect of an identical Monaghan Militia button with exactly the same backmark. The button cannot be viewed as it is no longer available - coincidence or the one you have perhaps?

I am intrigued by the reference to 'The King's Button Maker' - a very grand statement to make, even if he didn't say which King! Even in those days there must have been some substance behind the remark and it seems strange that it is not a better known backmark.

I hope someone else can pick up on this with a little more information.

Roger

[John Mulcahy]

I can add some more data that I think can date the button to c. 1822 - c. 1833.

There are lots of reference to the Jones Button makers in the Dublin newspapers of the time, patent infringement cases, employment notices , adverts etc...

I found this from Saunders News-Letter & Daily Advertiser, no 10,111, Thursday Jan 3rd 1822 announcing the dissolution , on Jan 1 1822, of the partnership of Edward & William Jones and that William is now the sole proprietor.


John

[Roy]

Hi Roger,

The reference you found to the button maker is indeed the one I purchased.

John,

It seems you have made some great progress in regards the dates. Although the clipping you posted is too small to read, if you can make out those details then it seem to confirm the date of this to between 1822 - 1833. I'm still a little confused with the pattern of this button supposedly to be early, the dates done't really match up, unless they were still producing this button that late?

I'm also still rather intrigued as to this exact maker marking not having been noted before.

Well done though John, you've done some great research and we certainly know more about the Jones's that when the thread was started.

Cheers, Roy.

P.s. managed to get some reasonable photos done yesterday, darn difficult thought. Will attach another of the back mark. It is much crisper than my poor photo suggests, just couldn't get the light right.

[John Mulcahy]

Roy

see if this attachment is better.

Regarding dates this button should have been use up until c. 1833 by the Monaghan militia.

Thus, William Jones as the sole owner of the business from 1822 (thus the "W Jones" back mark) seems to fit well to me with the period in which the Monaghan militia had the number 1 precedence in its designation (1793-1833).

Thus you appear to have a button from the later part of its existence as the 1st or Monaghan Regiment of Militia.

John

[Roy]

Hi John,

Thank you for that John, the scan was perfect and wonderful to not only read but also to have such great evidence - you have nailed this John..!

It was interesting to note the comment "long established manufactory" just as a point of interest.

Again John - thank you so much for the research, really interesting and to have first hand accounts of this marker to read is just terrific. It will be interesting moving forward to keep our eyes open for the same or similar markers marks.

I wonder if William and Edward were brothers? Perhaps Edward was the senior and the dissolution reflected a retirement?

Great stuff...

Cheers, Roy.

[Cribyn]

Hello John

Thank you very much for the effort you put into this, much appreciated.

It was very interesting to read the newspaper article, in particular the heading - "William Jones Button-Maker to His Majesty". This obviously ties in to the backmark itself "The King's Button Maker". I do wonder whether he was 'authorised' to use this title and what buttons he actually made for the King. The implication is that he made buttons for the personal use of the King rather than for the King's officers or staff.

I can't recall any other button maker using a similar form of wording on their buttons although many used 'By Royal Appointment' or similar on their advertising material.

A very nice button Roy, but in my view it is the backmark that makes it a great one!

Roger