Royal Marines Commando Cloth Title WWII opininion

[Phill Lockett]

Hi all

This is a paste back and the lettering style is ///// also have checked under UV and it doesn't glow.

Is this a late war title and was it worn?

Also could this type of construction been used post war for Royal Marines Commando's?

thanks in advance

Phill

[Mike B]

Phill
This site is very useful - it should answer a lot of questions - but also raise others!

http://www.rmhistorical.com/

See Badges section in particular

In a rush so please excuse brevity

Mike

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike

Unfortunetley it raises more questions which only seasoned collectors would know.

The one I pictured is not there.

There is also a discussion on the use of the s "Marines" and "Marine" WWII or post WWII?

Mine doesn't fit the 1954-76 which I believe is a thicker variant.

I think my one needs the educated eye of the seasoned collector.

Sorry mate im none the wiser.

Phill

[Mike B]

Phill
Sorry the site did not provide the information you sought - I did mention it raises a lot of questions as well as answering others ... Nevertheless a useful starting point if even through 'deduction'.
I have heard that glue back manufacture was a wartime method - but I appreciate my head might get blown off if I put it above the parapet any further. Did this method go on for any length of time after the war? - I don't know, but have heard not for long.
In deed a RM Specialist may be able to advise.
Hopefully through raising questions on Forums we can be pointed in the right direction, and I hope this is the case with your query which raises interesting points.
And yes - I am familiar with the other points you raise re S etc as well as many other formats - all fascinating stuff that will keep us busy for years to come.
Mike

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Mike

It is an interesting site and I have learnt what to look for and the dates they were issued or used.

The glue back/paste back is what I have been informed by many collectors of WWII era manufacture ,but as you know there are no absolutes in collecting patches, maybe it could of had a limited use post war?

What I find mystifying is that I have read as many threads with subject titles RM Commando Insignia (that i can locate) but no one has asked the question.

I have posted on Commando forum so I will get back if there is anything interesting to report.

Just a thought could this have been made for but never used or issued due to having the distinctive Royal Marines straight "cash" tape RM titles?

Phill

[Mike B]

Phill

It is certainly good that you are asking questions - similar questions have been asked by others but as far as I know many questions have not been definitively answered. Pooling knowledge through forums and correspondence obviously helps. It is disappointing that your questions have not attracted more replies as any snippets or thoughts are helpful.

You will know that in addition to the Cash Tape RM insignia there were various other multi-part/put together RM titles as well as several distinct one piece Unit titles. I can think of one pattern relating to No 44 RM COMMANDO (this format) that I have never seen in a 'worn' state.

Some of the three part titles include cut down numeral over straight generic ROYAL MARINES title with curved COMMANDO below. I imagine you have seen images or have examples

I tend to associated single piece, multi lined RM titles as later versions but 'possibly' late war - further research is required to be definitive about start and end dates in many instances.

Obviously one thing to bear in mind for dative evidence is the insignia sometimes worn in conjunction with shoulder designations - particularly the fact that the 'Combined Operations' badge was replaced after a request for distinct 'Commando Group' insignia had been made in November 1944. Again you are probably aware of this.

Several variations of Shoulder Designation (including 'put together' three piece examples) are illustrated in Special Publication 41 of the Royal Marines Historical Society celebrating the 350th Anniversary of the Corps in 2014 - headed 'Personal Distinctions: 350 Years of Royal Marines Uniform and Insignia' by John Rawlinson. Several members of this forum contributed items/images for illustration. John also had access to the Museum and Archive. I believe the book is available through the RM Museum, Southsea for £35. It covers all aspects of RM distinctions and insignia, over 350 years, in 316 pages.

Archive documentation of the titles is not strong, particularly theatre made variants.

If you are referring the Commando Veterans Association site their Photograph Archive is excellent and the Forum useful, again several members of CVA are on this forum too so hopefully it should produce something - please keep us informed.

Mike

[Mike Jackson]

To the best of my knowledge the title that started this interesting thread is a perfectly normal RM Cdo shoulder title - certainly worn throughout the 1950s and up to the demise of BD in the early 1960s. I've never seen any imagery to indicate that this style of title was worn before VE Day. Mike

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike Mike

Mike B . its a pleasure reading your replies.

You have made me start to read more history on commando units of WWII."

I know thats a big topic in itself, the history, the insignia is fascinating what I find most of all is the leaders and some of the personalities via the net.

Today I passed a second hand book shop and brought Commandos by Charles Messenger and Commando's and Rangers by James Ladd, that should keep me busy this weekend.

I'm still looking into RM Cash tape Insignia.

What I see is several different material and construction. Woven , embroidered on felt or wool and also embroidered on a thick cotton tape(?). Would that be correct?

Mike J

Thanks for your input.

With what little I know and have searched via the net,you will already know this, that it could of been made in anticipation (what we US collectors use) but never eventuated, for what ever reason and manufactured to wartime specs late war /post war 45-46 and the RMC decided to go with the multi piece tapes post war, maybe they wanted to start a new era and was unique to the Marines?

However the ones that you refer too, I have seen, is embroidered on a thicker felt from the 50's onwards , which are well known I believe.

Also little did they know that 76 years later we collectors would be trying to decode the authenticity of insignia used , when all that was done back then was a simple order for cloth titles!

But then again thats what makes this hobby interesting!!

Any more more thoughts welcomed.

Thank you gentlemen have a good day.

Phill

[Mike B]

Phill/Mike

Phill -It is good to exchange ideas and views as we are all learning all the time and even simple looking patterns possess their own mystique.
With CASH TAPE - many collectors avoid the unit numerals (40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48) at approx. 13mm - they are believed dubious. Genuine examples should be approx 17mm.

You have two good books there - Messenger's 'Middle East Commandos' came later and contradicts/updates some of his earlier information. Going back to archives and War Diaries reveals further inconsistencies but the books provide a very good introduction. The same is true of James Ladd, It provides a very good overview but Major General Julian Thompson (From Sea Soldiers to a Special Force) is more reliable. When I used to assist the Secretary of the Commando Old Comrades Association (which stood down in 2005) I met many many veterans. Several thought 'The Green Beret' by Hilary St George Saunders remained the best history. It is a little dated and written through contemporary access to COHQ records. The author wrote the Ministry of Information booklet 'Combined Operations' on commission from COHQ then expanded it into his book. He also wrote 'The Red Beret' and all remain available through various internet sites. In my own opinion the book to buy covering the War in the Desert, so far as the often misunderstood 'Layforce' goes, is the National Archive 'Special Forces in the Desert War'. It also covers LRDG and SAS desert exploits. It is largely a facsimile of contemporary accounts. I agree that a good library is a very useful resource - the more you read the more you get sucked into this area.

There is no substitute for research in any area of collecting - but alas it is often difficult to give definitive/specific answers regarding Commando insignia - particularly early examples. You are obviously an experienced collector, but I agree with your cautionary approach in this field of interest.

Mike - Thanks for your observations - I agree entirely. Perhaps the earliest dative image I have seen the title worn, was on 1947 BD which ties up with what you say. It is the 'Glue Back' that is interesting as I have been told this generally means wartime - there again not definite.

Mike

[Mike Jackson]

Another not very well known book worth reading is "Commando Men" by Bryan Samain (Steven & Sons Ltd, London 1948). 1 SS Bde/1 Cdo Bde in general and 45 RM Cdo in particular - D Day to VE Day. Mike

[Mike B]

Mike - yes - another very good book - and very useful account of 45 (RM) Commando. You made me go and look at it again ... surprised it was first published in 1948! These early accounts have a particular 'buzz' about them, also true of many related Commando biographies - those published by Lord Lovat, Peter Young, Durnford-Slater, Mills-Roberts etc. I am always 'burrowing' into them.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Phill
This site is very useful - it should answer a lot of questions - but also raise others!

http://www.rmhistorical.com/

See Badges section in particular

In a rush so please excuse brevity

Mike

I was very disappointed to note that the Royals are claiming to have designed the "Unofficial SBS badge designed in 1948/49 by Mne Tom Boardman"

http://www.rmhistorical.com/images/Misc.pdf

It was actually the metal/enamel beret badge of 2 SBS (an Army unit) and was designed (c 26 Nov 42) by a member of that very small unit and worn on the green beret from 1942. The date, design and colours are evidenced by the image below - from a manufacturer's design/order book owned by a friend. Mike

2 SBS 26 Nov 42 from unident pattern book.jpg

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I was very disappointed to note that the Royals are claiming to have designed the "Unofficial SBS badge designed in 1948/49 by Mne Tom Boardman"

http://www.rmhistorical.com/images/Misc.pdf

It was actually the metal/enamel beret badge of 2 SBS (an Army unit) and was designed (c 26 Nov 42) by a member of that very small unit and worn on the green beret from 1942. The date, design and colours are evidenced by the image below - from a manufacturer's design/order book owned by a friend. Mike

Attachment 149808

When I first saw this badge many years ago I thought it was for the Special Service Brigade.

Marc

[Mike B]

Mike - EXCEPTIONAL!
The story goes that when the badge was first issued it received a great deal of criticism from outside the unit - not seen that drawing before!
I am very fortunate to have a couple of attributed ones - here is one.
Worn by 2 SBS only. As you say - a very small unit - Nominal Roll in Geoffrey Courtney's Book 'SBS in World War Two' suggests about 34 at Saltcoats in 1942 before reinforcement at Hillhead 1942-43 of about 65. Far fewer names by the time of posting to Far East - A rare thing.

Marc - I can understand the confusion!

Mike

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike B and all those that have contributed to this thread.

Looks like I have a few more books to get.

Much appreciated for all the input.


Phill