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  #1  
Old 03-07-12, 06:56 PM
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Default RN Sennet Hat

I have never seen or handled one of these rare hats -

Can someone tell me if this example is good?

Thanks in advance, RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sennet hat.jpg (56.6 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet inside.jpg (66.6 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet top design.jpg (60.8 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet inside maker mark.jpg (56.6 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet bow.jpg (65.5 KB, 71 views)

Last edited by RCN; 03-07-12 at 11:04 PM. Reason: ....
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  #2  
Old 04-07-12, 04:54 PM
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Default RN Sennet Hat

Hi Bryan

The hat looks good to me as it is virtually identical to one I have in my collection - even down to the cloth 'patch' on top. Mine differs from yours in not having any sort of lining. Mine has a leather band around the inside and nothing else. However there are some small marks which suggest that it may have had some sort of lining at some time. Mine did not have a tally in situ when I acquired it. I'm not sure about your tally though. Perhaps someone else could comment about that. But I'm happy with the hat!

Pete
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  #3  
Old 04-07-12, 05:13 PM
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Default RN Sennet Hat

Bryan

Have been trying to identify the name on the tally. Appears to be H.M.S. LIBER??. Can you tell me what the name is and I will check the records for to confirm a ship of that name being in service pre-1922 (when the sennet hat went out of use). As your hat has a mark with a King's Crown it would appear to have been manufactured between 1901 and 1922. The tally you have on it is certainly not a standard tally for that period. I know that various decorated tallies exist with flags and/or fancy lettering with the names of ships of that time but I do not believe that they were officially issued by the Royal Navy (both the National Maritime Museum and the Royal Naval Museum agree with me). I believe such tallies to have been worn by children on their sailors hats (sailor suits being very popular for children at the time), cheap souvenirs of naval events or even worn on their straw boaters by members of rowing clubs (I have seen several of these in collections of rowing memorabilia where there is no doubt about where they originated). No-one has shown me any evidence to confirm that these were ever officially issued to mark Fleet Reviews or the Trafalgar Centenary. So please let me know what the name is and I will investigate it. As I said, I do believe the sennet hat to be genuine.

Pete
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Old 04-07-12, 07:45 PM
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Default Sennet hat

Pete I thank you very much for your detailed response.

I do not actually have the hat with me as yet, its on its way to me from overseas so when I receive it I will take more detailed photos & post. I dont know what ship is on the cap ribbon but I have written to the person I have purchased it from & asked him to clarify.

I knew the cap ribbon was likely not orriginal to the hat, but that did not bother me that much as I have period ribbons I can replace it with. & I am aware of the many unofficial ribbons of the Victorian/Edwardian period.

But what really concerned me was that star shaped patch on the top of the crown, I have never seen the top of a sennet hat so I did not know that there was to be any design there. I have RPPC's of sailors wearing sennets & none show any design on the crown, so this was of concern to me.

I have att'd a couple of photos below to show this.....
If you feel that it is "kosher' then thats is good enough for me.

The hat has cost me a bit, but it came with good provenance from an old respected collection, but what I dont want is a theatical reproduction that might have been worn by theatre/vaudeville actors of the period.
So you have helped to reassure me somewhat.

Again I appreciate your time to respond in detail, & another request pls -- could you post photos of your sennet hat?

RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ratings front Niobe .jpg (64.3 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg rating senn hat.jpg (45.0 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg Rating sennet hat2.jpg (43.1 KB, 53 views)

Last edited by RCN; 04-07-12 at 09:12 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-07-12, 07:47 PM
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Pete another thought -- the crown could be the VRI crown that she used for India after she became Emnpress of India in 1877?

The crown & maker's design never bothered me, it certainly looks period.

RCN Bryan
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  #6  
Old 05-07-12, 08:12 AM
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Default RN Sennet Hat

Hello Bryan

I have photos of ratings wearing sennet hats complete with the 'patch' on top. I will sort some out for you.

I will gladly photograph my hat for you and put some pictures on for you. However, I am going away to enjoy what passes for summer here (the rain is warmer than in the winter!) so I will sort that out when I get back. However, I will try to scan a couple of quick pictures of the hats complete with patch later today.

Pete
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Old 05-07-12, 10:10 AM
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The design on the top is the compass rose, often used by sailors in their folk art, scrimshaw and also in tattoos on their body. The superstition is that if you have one on you, usually in conjuntion with a star tattoo, you will always be able to find your way home.
I'm fairly certain I've seen similar tallies in Bosley catalogues
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  #8  
Old 05-07-12, 03:42 PM
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Hi Old Smelly (seems impolite to call you that!)

Yes, you are quite right about the design being that of a compass rose. I just never know what to call the thing it's embroidered on other than a 'patch'! I have seen auction houses and sellers on e-bay advertising the sale of these ornate tallies and describing them as Royal Navy tallies. I can only reiterate what I said before - neither the National Maritime Museum or the Royal Naval Museum recognise them as being naval issue and I have never come across anything which confirms them as being so. If anyone ever produces any evidence that they are genuine RN tallies I will gladly admit I am wrong!

Bryan

I have quickly sorted out a few pictures which show sennet hats with the 'patch' bearing the compass rose design. I hope these will do for now. The 'patch seems to have been popular during the 1860s to 1880s but seems to disappear by the 1890s as I don't think I have any pictures after that date. Perhaps it just went out of fashion? The first picture is from 1867, the second is an illustration from the Uniform Regulations of 1879, and finally, a picture of a rating from HMS Alexandra in 1881 feeding the ship's pet bear! I hope these help.

Pete
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HMS Victoria, 1867.jpg (93.4 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg Illustration from 1879 Uniform Regulations.jpg (35.6 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Feeding the pet ear HMS Alexandra, 1881.jpg (92.2 KB, 65 views)
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  #9  
Old 05-07-12, 03:44 PM
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Lee

Sorry for addressing you as Old Smelly. Just spotted your name after submitting my last entry. Sorry mate!

Pete
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  #10  
Old 05-07-12, 08:36 PM
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THANKS Lee & Pete for your very informative responses!
I was wondering when the compass rose disappeared from the hats. This certainly was news to me, I had never expected this to be part of the hat & as mentioned earlier it was of concern to me.

The photo above would have been taken at the very birth of the RCN in 1910so by then the rose would have disappeared form the sennet hats.

When I am in recipt of the hat I will post more photos of it.

RCN Bryan
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Old 10-07-12, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzman View Post
Bryan

Have been trying to identify the name on the tally. Appears to be H.M.S. LIBER??. Can you tell me what the name is and I will check the records for to confirm a ship of that name being in service pre-1922 (when the sennet hat went out of use). As your hat has a mark with a King's Crown it would appear to have been manufactured between 1901 and 1922.

The tally you have on it is certainly not a standard tally for that period. So please let me know what the name is and I will investigate it. As I said, I do believe the sennet hat to be genuine.

Pete
Pete the sennet hat ribbon is HMS LIBERTY.

I think this would be the Liberty of either 1850 (A Training Brig that was sold in 1905) or the Destroyer of 1913 & sold in 1921, but possibly not the destroyer as the compass rose design had disappeared by then?

RCN Bryan
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  #12  
Old 19-07-12, 03:08 PM
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Hello Bryan

Have returned from my break so here are a few pictures of my sennet hat. I have had this about 20 years now and although it looks very robust in the pictures it is in fact rather fragile. The straw itself is rather darker than it appears in some of the photos and appears as bright as it does because of the flash (despite it being mid-summer it was so dark at midday I had to use the flash to get a decent picture!).

The hat is shown as I purchased it - minus a tally. The person I bought it from said they did remember there being one but that it had simply fallen to pieces. I did put a c1900 tally onto it but, as I said earlier, I have not seen a picture of a sennet hat with a compass rose later than about 1890 so I took it off again!

The interior of the hat is quite worn. The band inside the hat is leather and beneath it I have found traces of fabric which was once probably white. This presumably once covered the interior of the hat.

Lastly, I have included a picture of the compass rose itself. Not such an elegant design as yours but I like it!

I hope the pictures are of some use and interest.

Pete
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hat1.jpg (59.1 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg Hat2.jpg (67.2 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Hat3.jpg (67.1 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Hat4.jpg (101.4 KB, 36 views)
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  #13  
Old 19-07-12, 04:28 PM
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Hello again Bryan

A few final thoughts. Been looking at the pictures I have just put up. They make the crown of the hat look higher than it does in reality - probably due to the camera angle. My photos make it look more like a straw top hat! Sorry - I'm not a very good photographer. The absence of a tally also makes it seem rather high. Once the hat has a tally on it looks more normal! The pictures also don't show how floppy and flimsy the hat actually is.

Despite the presence of the compass rose I'm inclined to think this hat is actually a fairly late hat. I was actually shown a photograph of the sellers ancestor wearing it and I would have said the photo dated from about 1900. Unfortunately I couldn't see the top of the hat in the picture so I couldn't see if there was a compass rose! I couldn't get a copy of the picture either.

Over the years I have attempted to undertake some research into the manufacture of these hats. The centre of straw hat manufacturing in Britain during the 19th century was Luton in Bedfordshire. Until the Second World War the police there even wore straw police helmets during the summer! Substantial government contracts were awarded to the firms in the town including contracts to supply sennet hats to the Royal Navy. An examination of the specifications listed for the hats show that there could be quite a lot of variation as regards minor details of their manufacture. Although the end result was always a Royal Navy sennet hat different manufacturers produced hats with subtle variations. The industry went into decline partly as the result of straw hats going out of fashion after the First World War and partly as a result of straw hats being produced more cheaply in other parts of the Empire, such as India.

RE the tally. As you say there are two ships with the name H.M.S. LIBERTY which would fit into the period of the sennet hat. The first is the training brig built at Pembroke in 1850 and broken up in 1905. Standard gold wire tallies came into use in the 1860s so unless the tally were an older one put on a later hat I do not think the tally relates to her. The second H.M.S. LIBERTY, the destroyer named in 1913, is just far too late for a tally of that style.
Not much help I'm afraid.

Pete
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Old 19-07-12, 05:21 PM
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Thanks very much Pete for the photos & detailed information!
I appreciate your contributions very much!!

Very nice to know the centre in Luton where the hats were produced, news to me, & I also thought that there would have been various manufacturers over a long time frame. It must have been quite an extensive industry in the day & provided employment for many local residents.

My hat is on its way to me & I should have it next week so I too will take more detainled photos of it exterior & interior & post for you as well.
I think the hat I have has the lining still intact, or appears so in the photos I was sent, but I will take shots of the interior as well. I am just hoping it gets to me intact but he has assured me he has packed it very well.

What amazes me about this sennet hat is the fact that they were worn both on shore bases & shore ships & as well at sea. I dont think they had a interior strap that the white caps had - what was called a "chin stay" in the old pre 1968 RCN. I dont expect they were worn day in day out but perhaps for only special occasions, inspections & the like, but I cannot help feeling a fair number of these sennet hats must have blown overboard, they must have taken the wind like sails when any kind of sea was running. So I kind of wonder when a rating lost his hat overboard did he have to purchase a new one or was he issued another replacement??? There must have been a stock of them in stores on board for this very purpose.

The HMS Liberty cap ribbon I dont know if it would be period but I expect it is/was. The collector who sold me the hat told me it wa son the hat when he obtained it many yrs ago & did not appear to be added. Perhaps Liberty's Captain had specific ribbons made to order for his Ship's company (or perhps his barge crew) hats? - we will likely never know tho. The ribbon is not a great concern for me tho, its the authenticity of the hat thats important to me.

I have several bios & books of the Victorian Edwardian period but I dont recall any mention of the 'rigours' of wearing a sennet in any of them.
I really wonder what the ratings in the day thought of them???

I have att'd a period shot {from one of the Illustrated War News of the period & another on a card printed for the presentation taken in late1914} of seaman ratings wearing the sennet on the day they were presented with medals at Buckingham Palace. His was the first Conspicuous Gallantry medal of the Great War. So they would still have been worn early in the war for special occasions.

Again Pete, many thanks & will post photos when I have the hat.....

RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cremer photo.jpg (89.2 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg Cremer palace group ph.JPG (88.8 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Cremr palace group close.JPG (85.9 KB, 35 views)

Last edited by RCN; 19-07-12 at 05:24 PM. Reason: ....
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  #15  
Old 27-03-13, 01:47 PM
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Hi Pete,

I am going to resurrect this topic on the RN SENNET hat that we had going back in the summer of 2012 as I had forgotten about posting the photos I had taken of the hat after I had finally received it.

Like yours, my example is very fragile, the straw is quite dark & I coming apart at one part of the crown, so I have to handle it with considerable care.
Actually I am amazed that it has survived for so many yrs in such remarkable condition & survived the recent trip across the Atlantic as well. Its probably made a few trips across oceans of the world in its lifetime!

So I have attached several shots for comparison to yours......

RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty Front HMS.jpg (44.0 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty rt side.jpg (43.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty Front.jpg (51.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty HMS.jpg (86.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty ribbon.jpg (87.5 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet bow.jpg (65.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty Top crown.jpg (63.2 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Sennett top.jpg (91.1 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet compass rose.jpg (99.7 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet Liberty bow.jpg (57.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Sennet brim border.jpg (47.5 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by RCN; 27-03-13 at 02:03 PM. Reason: ...
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