How do you gauge value?

[cw2311]

Hello All,

Have you ever looked at something for sale and said, “That’s way too much money for that” or “That’s a bargain!”

So how would someone determine a fair price to pay for military collectables? Who sets the ‘going rate’ of an item?

Is it ‘bench marked’ by what the last item sold for at auction?

Is Ebay the ‘value setter’ of military collectables?... and if so, do you use the highest or lowest price an item last sold for? (I guess this depends on if you are the buyer or the seller)

Is it based on what a fanatical wealthy collector would pay?

Is there one or two particular BIG sellers out there who set the price for the rest of the collector world to follow?

I figured this would make for a good discussion since every time I show interest in buying something, I always get the usual sales pitch!

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this subject.

Cheers from Canada!

[Alan O]

Well lets take this badge for example:

Towe Hamlet Rifles sold on ebay yesterday:

At Bosleys circa £80, from a dealer £70 but on ebay it sold for £22.

Now Bosleys' prices are generally high because of their cachet but and that is without VAT, P&P and commission. Ebay however can have highs and lows. If the THR badge had been correctly described then it could have gone for much more if the right collectors had seen it.

I suppose the value is very much up to the whim of the buyer or seller but the market rate is probably an average of all of the above. If I was putting it up for sale then £50 would seem a reasonable price to me and I don't think it would take long to sell.

[cw2311]

Excellent points Alan O!

[Peter Brydon]

whilst I would not disagree with the comments made by Alan and although supply and demand and the number of collectors to particular regiments/types of insignia all play their part, at the end of the day it is COLLECTORS who set the going rate for what is actually paid for items.

P.B.

( here is an example : http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=31010 )

[Mike Jackson]

Looking at the bidding history for that lot, could it all have been a genuine sale process - the jump of £400 - "just like that"!
Mike

[wright241]

Originally Posted by cw2311

Hello All,

Have you ever looked at something for sale and said, “That’s way too much money for that” or “That’s a bargain!”

1) So how would someone determine a fair price to pay for military collectables? Who sets the ‘going rate’ of an item?

2) Is it ‘bench marked’ by what the last item sold for at auction?

3) Is Ebay the ‘value setter’ of military collectables?... and if so, do you use the highest or lowest price an item last sold for? (I guess this depends on if you are the buyer or the seller)

4) Is it based on what a fanatical wealthy collector would pay?

5) Is there one or two particular BIG sellers out there who set the price for the rest of the collector world to follow?

I figured this would make for a good discussion since every time I show interest in buying something, I always get the usual sales pitch!

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this subject.

Cheers from Canada!

From Canada,
ref 1) as already stated, collectors do.
ref 2) No. Because a) 2 (or more) people might want the same thing and/or b) some people have no idea of its real value - i.e. rarity.
ref 3) definitely not, as there are a lot of copies/fakes sold on ebay and most of us - me included - have bought tat from unscrupulous sellers. As the old adage goes 'if something is too good to be true, it probably isn't'.
ref 4) No
ref 5) If something is that rare, money is king.

Saying all of that, it is still possible to pick up bargains from ebay. The key is to read the way it is described 'exactly' and a large helping of common sense - and insist on seeing pictures of the back - and of course, what other BABF forum members may have posted.....
You also can't beat handling the badge, which means that - of course - if you buy from an honest seller, you can send it back without any problems. Like the rest of us, you will probably get 'stung' a number of times. I still find it hard to understand why some unscrupulous sellers have such a high positive feedback score - but then ebay makes money either way and I doubt that they will ever stop the fakers from selling fakes/copies/restrikes etc etc.

I have also been collecting stamps for the last 45++ years - but then 'we' have a number of catalog's for establishing values - within certain constraints - unfortunately, badge collectors don't. Buyer beware.
All the same, good luck and I am sure there will be lots more contributions to your query.

Rgds, David

[Sonofacqms]

Many good points have been made previously and to illustrate the highs and lows of badge collecting here is what happened to me some thirty years ago; I had some fascist italian arm shields which I decided to sell or exchange for British and Colonial badges.

These arm shields had been making fabulous prices recently, but when I decided to part with mine I could hardly get an offer on them. A fellow collector told me that the guys he knew who collected arm shields now had the complete set and did not want them anymore.

Another friend of mine has had some of these arm shields in his shop for months with no sign of them selling, thirty years ago they would never have made the display cabinet . . !

So it is collectors who set the price and the demand.

Rob

[cw2311]

Thanks for all the excellent points Gents, as they all have their merits. The one thing all the threads appear to have in common is everyone agrees that the collector / consumer drives the market. I’m sure television and the movie industry has played a role as to collector interest as well. Prior to the movie Band of Brothers, few knew who Richard Winters was or all the trials and tribulations of the 506th.

Then it wouldn’t be too farfetched to say that a few wealthy collectors could inflate ‘market value’ or possibly several dealers collaboratively working together to maintain and incrementally raise the market values slowly to prevent THEIR business investment from falling apart? By doing so, you maintain collector interest by showing that the hobby is also an investment with a potential return.

[Charlie585]

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[Alan O]

Ry,

I think your view of prices merely reinforces the point about demand dicating the price. If you can get one of these from Bosleys at £20-30 then that would be a good deal even with the additional costs. The 2012 postal auction had these 2 in it:

273 Tower Hamlets Rifles post 1926 white metal field service cap badge. 32
275 Tower Hamlets Rifles post 1926 white metal cap badge. 42

2011

42 Tower Hamlets Rifles post 1926 white metal cap badge. 45
268 Tower Hamlets Rifles post 1926 white metal field service cap badge. 32


There were some sold in 2007 and 2008 but I can't find the prices at the moment. However adding 20% plus VAT and postage to hammer price makes it all creep up.

Again the dealer price depends on the dealer. He who shall not be named will charge you far more than another dealer. I note that BritishArmyBadges currently have one on for £50.

Alan

[Bill A]

Collector driven values can be clearly seen in Canadian CEF badges, and a few select Second World War badges. Prices spiked a little over a year ago when two determined and well financed collectors went after CEF badges. Some CEF badges which were not considered rare went for very healthy prices. The values on CEF badges seem to have plateaued since then. The VIII Recce badges have skyrocketed in value over the last year and a half, and that is evident from results by many different vendors.
In reference to "one or two particular BIG sellers out there who set the price for the rest of the collector world to follow", those who follow / collect Canadian badges will know that there is some substance to this idea. However, I am not sure it is a case of setting values for others to follow, or more that the vendor believes that is the value the badge should realize, in his opinion. Evaluating this point is difficult, as many of the badges being offered are rare, and the market will not likely see the same badge again for some time. (If at all.) The CEF situation mentioned above is evidence of this as well. There has not been an E247, E248, or E252 offered for sale since those auctions over a year ago. There have not been other auctions of similar badges to test the theory, which supports the idea that collectors drive the value question.

[Alan O]

I do wonder whether with the 100 year annisversary of WW1 coming up there may be a hike in prices of related badges.

[rhodesianmilitaria]

Originally Posted by cw2311

So how would someone determine a fair price to pay for military collectables? Who sets the ‘going rate’ of an item?

Is it ‘bench marked’ by what the last item sold for at auction?

Yes to some people but not to me. People buy for all kinds of reasons. They might buy to on sell it, because it's the missing piece in that part of their collection, because it's rare or because they like it etc. There are four items I'm looking for and I don't know anyone who remembers at least two of them ever coming on the market before so how can there be a benchmark? If I saw any of them for sale I don't even know what I'm prepared to pay to obtain them.

Originally Posted by cw2311

Is Ebay the ‘value setter’ of military collectables?... and if so, do you use the highest or lowest price an item last sold for? (I guess this depends on if you are the buyer or the seller)

No. The value of an item is set at that time by what the highest price is that a person is willing to pay at that particular time but it's not set in concrete. I have won some very rare items on ebay for very good prices and at the same time I have seen some items sell well above what the market would normally pay.

Originally Posted by cw2311

Is it based on what a fanatical wealthy collector would pay?

Hard one to give a comprehensive answer. For example Lord Ashcroft may through his purchasing of a large number of British VC's have set a 'market price' for them but that has no bearing on the price of VC's awarded to Australians, Kiwi's or Canadians. Most collectors that have the funds to pay above what most people would pay don't collect the same thing over and over so eventually the price will come back to what someone is prepared to pay for it.

Originally Posted by cw2311

Is there one or two particular BIG sellers out there who set the price for the rest of the collector world to follow?

I don't believe anyone particularly sets the price for the collector world to follow. As I said above people buy items for all kinds of reasons. Rarity is certainly not a guarantee of a top price but rarity and a demand for that item normally is. Final price is dictated by a lot of different factors.

[cw2311]

Peter,

You gave an excellent example of Lord Ashcroft heavily inflating the market value of VC’s to the point that only the ‘elite’ can afford to play in that arena. However, he didn’t do it alone, he needed someone else to outbid! The prices he’s paid have affected all VC values, regardless of the country of origin. I guess if he changes his main focus to the George Cross, we would see a similar jump in value.

Interestingly enough, there didn’t seem to be any major focus on ‘rarity’ of an item. I assume this is because we can all come up with examples of items that are truly considered rare but for some reason the market interest just hasn’t grown in that area.

Excellent points Gents!

Coogan

[rhodesianmilitaria]

I don't believe or have ever seen any evidence that Ashcroft's buying of VC's has had any effect on the prices of Australian VC's. In general Australian VC's command a lot more money than VC's from any other country and the sale of the last five VC's would show that. Ashcrofts collection is also concentrated on British VC's not Australian. Australian VC's sold in Australia cannot leave the country without special permission and good luck on that.

A lot of Australian militaria costs more to buy than most other countries comparable militaria and medals are a typical example. While the market price has dropped of late it's still not cheap. Overseas markets I believe have no effect on it because there is a very strong collector base here.