Canada/USA title - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Johnny A · #1 22-08-12, 09:15 PM

Hello, Just picked these up today, a pair of Canada/ USA country titles. Just the country names, nothing else, as one unit on RCAF blue. In what circumstances would those have been worn? Thanks.

SAS1 · #2 22-08-12, 11:28 PM

No image attached, but Americans in the RCAF wore the 'USA' title within Canada. Once posted abroad the 'CANADA' was added.

If on blue/grey they would be for officers. Quite unusual to see the combined title, in most cases the two were separate, the Canada worn on top.

Voltigeur · #3 23-08-12, 12:50 AM

PO Hollis "Holly" Hills,US Navy pilot serving with 414 Squadron RCAF.
Courtesy:canadianwings.com

Voltigeur · #4 23-08-12, 12:57 AM

Another pattern.

Air Marshal W.A. "Billy" Bishop, VC, pins wings on Leading Aircraftman R.N. Harrison of Montclair, New Jersey, upon his graduation from No. 2 Service Flying Training School at Uplands, Ontario (31 July, 1942).
Courtesy of bombercommandmuseum.ca

merk · #5 23-08-12, 03:47 AM

Like this?

SAS1 · #6 23-08-12, 07:23 AM

That's it Merk. That's an officer pattern, although yours looks to be hand made rather than machine made. The only machine made combined title I've seen is held by the Imperial War Museum, they are unusual.

Thanks for the photos Voltigeur. The one of Hills shows the correct way for them to be worn by an American RCAF officer overseas (title only, no eagle) although he is wearing other ranks pattern (on dark blue or black, rather than blue/grey).

Harrison is wearing the correct style for an American airman serving in Canada (with eagle). If he remained an NCO after getting his wings and was posted outside Canada he would have added 'Canada' above the eagle.

SAS1 · #7 28-08-12, 12:38 PM

Merk

This one has recently surfaced, and seems to be very close in type to yours. I am suspicious that an Argentina title might be worn under Canada, and also like yours, its clearly hand made.

Without naming names, did yours come from a dealer, ebay? Also, how do the backings compare?

Wingnut · #8 01-09-12, 03:44 PM

No question title is original. I have seen more than one picture and a tunic in person with this style. They also sew on 2 titles together Canada and USA on top of each other with no eagle. There are several pictures of the American RCAF dambbuster pilot with these titles on his tunic. The name escapes me at the moment. Nice badge!
David

SAS1 · #9 01-09-12, 05:43 PM

Joe McCarthy is the Dambuster you mean. His, like most, are two separate titles.

The Canada/USA title above is hand embroidered not machine made. I would have said genuine before seeing the Canada/ Argentina one. There are many simularities, including style, shape and method of embroidery. Most professional titles use a slanted stitch, be they machine or hand made. These use straight.

I have about 600 titles collected over 30 years and have only ever seen one machine made Canada/USA title, which is held in the IWM collection. Seeing the second title raises doubts on both for me.

merk · #10 02-09-12, 01:19 PM

Mine (both, I have a pair) came off a mildew destroyed tunic I bought at a estate sale here in Ontario. Unfortunately stored in a wet basement. Given that I paid $5.00 for it, it seems unlikely that they`re fake.

Here`s the reverse...

SAS1 · #11 02-09-12, 01:46 PM

Hmmmm..... I have my suspicions. Both titles are clearly hand made, and exhibit the exact same style of lettering on the 'C' 'A' 'N' and 'D', both have the same base material, both have identical backings, both have remnants of threads, and you say yours was bought in Ontario, coincidentally where the other is currently being sold.

Another point is Canadian dress regulations. They state that American personnel who joined the RCAF subsequent to 2nd September 1939 are entitled to wear a 'distinctive badge' Canada/USA for overseas service. However, In the case of others, such as Bermuda, no mention is made of the additional title 'Canada' being worn with it.

I think if it were standard practise for foreigners serving in the RCAF to automatically wear their own title with 'Canada' above when serving outside Canadian borders we would see more of them, and they would be mentioned in dress regulations. However, I have never seen any other Canada/? title in 30 years of collecting titles with the one exception of Great Britain and Canada (which was worn as two seperate titles), and whilst many varieties exist that were never authorised, the simularities of both the above badges, and the fact both are/were being sold in Ontario is too much of a coincidence for me.

merk · #12 02-09-12, 02:28 PM

Well, I can`t speak for the origin of the other title, and know nothing of the seller. Seems like an odd title to fake though.

As for mine, I guess anything is possible, but If it`s fake, then someone went to a lot of trouble for next to nothing. It must have been done a long time ago as well, in order to have that level of mothing and mildew on the tunic...

SAS1 · #13 02-09-12, 03:02 PM

"Well, I can`t speak for the origin of the other title, and know nothing of the seller. Seems like an odd title to fake though."

Well, as a potentially rare title and pretty much 'never-before-seen', some would pay a hefty price for it. I have about 600 titles and so its hard to find any I dont have. I would have paid a three figure price for the Argentina one if I hadnt seen yours first. As it is I wont go for it at all.

They look to me like they might easily have been made by the same person, using the same materials, same style etc. Both being sold at the same time in the same place is for me a little too coincidental.

merk · #14 02-09-12, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAS1

"Well, I can`t speak for the origin of the other title, and know nothing of the seller. Seems like an odd title to fake though."

Well, as a potentially rare title and pretty much 'never-before-seen', some would pay a hefty price for it. I have about 600 titles and so its hard to find any I dont have. I would have paid a three figure price for the Argentina one if I hadnt seen yours first. As it is I wont go for it at all.

They look to me like they might easily have been made by the same person, using the same materials, same style etc. Both being sold at the same time in the same place is for me a little too coincidental.

I see what you`re saying, but just so you have all the background...I bought mine 2 years ago out of a rotted suitcase in a hoarders basement in London, Ontario, It`s not for sale.

For what it`s worth..It doesn`t glow under UV, the threads appear to be natural fibres (no melting). I peeled the backing back a little so you can see the stitching.

Just so you have all the facts. I wouldn`t want to mislead anyone.

Oh, and the one being offered appears to be in Peterborough, which is over 300km from here...

SAS1 · #15 02-09-12, 08:05 PM

Thanks for posting the photo Merk. Im not doubting you, especially, but a couple of points. Firstly, only modern, synthetic WHITE items glow under UV light. Modern, natural or non white dont. So this could easily have been made in something like embroidery silk recently and it wont glow. The badge you show has no backing to support the lettering which is a basic 'error' even for an amateur embroiderer. If the two badges were offered in London Can and London UK maybe, but both in the same province??

The chances of two badges being made hand made at different times by different people in different places showing so many simularities now convinces me, I have no doubt now both are fakes, made recently by the same person.