Printed 53rd Welsh div patches

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Luc

The shadow occurs when stamp and fabric are not aligned perfectly, see attached example of the Czech armoured brigade formation sign with similar features.

Thanks for the input Luc.

I had an email from the seller,

"I was only going to bring this up when are transaction was completed...But having studied your forum notes you stated that I listed / sold as WW2 items...Please look at your original order conformation...WW2 is never mentioned in the item listing !
Please can you therefore amend this on your forum description."

I should add though that it was listed in the British Formation Signs and Badges (WW2) section of the site which to me seems to imply that they are WW2, or is that not a reasonable interpretation?

[Luc]

Regardless of what is explicitely stated in an item description, if it is listed in the WWII section, you must assume it is from WWII.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Luc

Regardless of what is explicitely stated in an item description, if it is listed in the WWII section, you must assume it is from WWII.

That was my thoughts and as is often the case the pictures were not good enough to show the finer points of it.

A shame he has now taken this line as I was giving serious thought to keeping them, as though they are on a post war BD and a bit over priced, they are still an unusual and fairly cool item.

[Mike Jackson]

The attached combination can, I believe be dated to the period Jun 42 to Sep 43 when the senior Brigade in the-then Mixed Division was 31 Tk Bde. The next in precedence was 158 Inf Bde comprising three TA battalions of the RWF - 4, 6 and 7 RWF. The combination indicates the second senior brigade by the inclusion of two horizontal Infantry AoS strips. The vertical red strips can permit each of the three RWF battalions to be identified - one vertical strip for 4 RWF, two for 6 RWF and three for 7 RWF. As a probable economy measure it is possible that only the version as shown below was manufactured. To be adjusted for 4 RWF and 6 RWF either two or one of the vertical strips could be cut off (or folded under).
But the combination in its entirety was short-lived. In Oct 43 the Division was reorganised - 31 Tk Bde left and 71 Inf Bde joined, becoming the senior brigade (notwithstanding the fact that none of its battalions were Welsh). And 11 months later in Normandy and as a result of heavy RWF battle casualties sustained by 158 Inf Bde, the brigade itself was reorganised - 1 East Lancs and 1/5 Welch joined from 71 Inf Bde, 4 RWF went to 71 Inf Bde and 6 RWF went to 160 Inf Bde.
Photographs show that the practice of RWF battalions in 53 Inf Div wearing the red vertical strips persisted - possibly informally - until the end of the war.
53 Inf Div RWF Bde.jpg

[JerryBB]

Nice patch Mike and thanks for the rundown on its meaning. They have an example of the same patch on the IWM website and give a similar explanation.

An interesting example was sewn on a BD that sold recently, though it has the brigade stripes mismatched on the two sleeves.

[Mike Jackson]

4 Welch served in the junior brigade - 160 Inf Bde - throughout the war. So the right arm didn't know what the left arm was doing!

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

4 Welch served in the junior brigade - 160 Inf Bde - throughout the war. So the right arm didn't know what the left arm was doing!

Indeed, nice Sospans though.

Mike, if I may ask, do you have an opinion on the 53rd patches on the thread starter, are they just badly made originals or are they obvious modern fakes/copies or post war issues perhaps?

All except one who have offered an opinion, here or elsewhere have stated they are original WWII examples and that is the thing that most concerns me, I can live with it being a postwar item, but only if the W's are real WWII examples.

Thanks to all who have contributed or looked.

[JerryBB]

Going round in circles with these and a shame there not more members here are willing (or able) to post an opinion, or PM me with one.

I still can't find either original or fake patches that match the 53rd Div patches, which makes it hard to decide how to proceed, as I don't mind if it is post war or a put together job, as long as the patches are original.

[Mike Jackson]

Not precisely what you are looking for but a couple of 2 Monmouths, 160 Inf Bde examples. Spot the fabrication...............
53 Inf Div 2 Monmouths.03.jpg 53 Welsh Div Monmouths suspect.jpg

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Not precisely what you are looking for but a couple of 2 Monmouths, 160 Inf Bde examples. Spot the fabrication...............
Attachment 79859 Attachment 79860

Thanks Mike for continuing to contribute to this and the construction does look very similar on all the examples being discussed. At least the first one you show has an original woven Div patch, can't tell on the 2nd one if it is an original embroidered version, it looks very pale.

[cymro]

Hi Jerry,

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm attaching some of my 53rd collection to show the different variants of the Divisional sign that are in my collection. As Mike says, there're quite a few out there...

Jon

[cymro]

Here they are...

[cymro]

More

[cymro]

Some more

[JerryBB]

Thanks Jon for adding your examples and good to see the two for the 38th Div. The Sospan is also good to see. Wow, you have added some more whilst I was typing, a lot of superb examples you have. Are those RWF transfers?