Sliders v Lugs on Inf cap badges

[davidwyke]

Can anyone provide a definitive answer to a very basic question regarding the use of lugs or sliders on O/R's Infantry cap badges please?

As I understand it' when C/B's were introduced for the new field service cap in the mid-late 1890's they were produced with lugs.

With the introduction of the Broderick cap in the early 1900's, soon followed by the new forage cap, cap badges were then usually produced with a slider.

So, why is it that while the vast majority of C/B's from the early 1900's onwards have a slider, they still sometimes turn up with lugs? Is it simply at the whim of the manufacturer or?

To illustrate my point, shown are two Duke Of Wellingtons Regt C/B's. I've seen lots of "Dukes" C/B's but all have had sliders except the one shown. Does this indicate an early badge or is it just a later variant?

To add to the confusion (for me anyway!) why is it that almost all Guards C/B's have lugs? The only Guards C/B I've seen with a slider is Grenadier Gds and then only rarely.

Any info/comments much appreciated.

[Phil2M]

Hi David,

I have a Welsh Guards cap badge with a slider. My other guards badges are all lugged.

Regards

Phil

[Alan O]

There is no definitive answer. Yes the War office sought to change over to sldiers in 1903 (with shorter sliders being used from 1906) but some headgear (scottish bonnets, side caps worn in India) kept lugs. Some regts chose to use lugs - such as the RTR and WW2 para badges due to the use of berets. It is only as a general rule that sliders are post 1903/6. The TF and yeomanry bought their own badges until the WO took over supply during WW1.

[davidwyke]

Thanks for the info chaps, much appreciated!

[2747andy]

David,
this may be of interest?

Andy

[chief_chum]

I have two original 'Broderick' caps and both have their original cap badges in place. Both are held on with lugs and a split pin. I also have the red peak from a Royal Marine Light Infantry Broderick which has two holes where the lugs would have been.
I have seen other Brodericks in private collections and one in a museum collection and they also all had badges fastened with lugs. In fact I can't think of any I have seen with a badge on a slider.
The coloured semi-circular 'peaks' on Brodericks were not sewn to the cap but remained loose but held in place with a metal hook and a loop of thread so they could be removed. The badges were fastened to the separate peaks and not into the caps at all.
I would be interested in seeing photographs of original Brodericks with slider-fastened cap badges.
Cheers,
Taff

[Charlie585]

Hi Gents,

I see this old chestnut is still being chewed over and I am inclined to agree with Alan that there is no definitive answer. That said, there is much information regarding the subject of the introduction / adoption of sliders here on the forum much of it backed up with documentary evidence painstakingly gathered, in particular by member KLR (Julian).

Taff,

You certainly seem to have thrown a spanner into the works with your observations on the badges affixed to “BRODRICK” caps. Although I have no doubt that lugged badges were used on this form of headdress I’m inclined from photographic evidence that I have seen to disagree with your statement that badges weren’t fixed to the caps themselves!

However, as one who is always keen to learn and happy to be corrected when necessary it would be very helpful if you were able to back up your findings with photographs as I’m sure that I’m not the only member that has been left scratching his head after reading your post.

Regards to all.

Ry

[chief_chum]

Hi Ry,

My pleasure. I will post photographs in three groups.

The first is the Royal Marine Light Infantry Broderick Peak I mentioned. As you can see the badge, on lugs, is fastened to the peak.

The peak is fastened to the cap with the metal hook at the top of the peak to a loop of thread on the cap itself. The hook is not seen when the peak is in place.

[chief_chum]

I can't lay my hands on my second complete Broderick but here are a few photographs of a third (unidentified) example I bought from a well known badge dealer recently.

As you can see, it is a very well-worn example but, with the front flap pulled down, you can see that there are no holes punctured in the headband of the cap.

The cap badge must have been fastened to the peak as with the other examples I show here.

The thread loop for holding the peak in place is clearly visible.

[chief_chum]

The third example is a complete, original, example issued in 1906 to 4521 Corporal J. Green of 1/Norfolk.

I have photographed it with the peak in place, and with it removed, so you can see that, again, the cap badge is only fastened to the peak and not through the cap band.

Once again I have pulled the flap down so that you can see that there are no holes punched through the headband. The metal hook on the peak, and the thread loop on the cap it fastens to, are clearly shown.

As the lower half of the cap badges worn on Brodericks were designed to hang over the bottom flap, the lugs would effectively have to go through the equivalent of three layers of cloth plus the stiffening in the headband and the stiffening in the peaks. The lugs would need to be very long to manage that.

Finally, just a follow up on your comment, "I’m inclined from photographic evidence that I have seen to disagree with your statement that badges weren’t fixed to the caps themselves!". How could you tell by looking at photographs and without looking behind the peak, or inside the headband, how the badge is fixed?!

I hope that this all helps.

Best wishes,

Taff

[Sonofacqms]

It begins to look as though those long sliders were for FSH and not Brodericks, great pics Taff.

Rob

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by chief_chum

Finally, just a follow up on your comment, "I’m inclined from photographic evidence that I have seen to disagree with your statement that badges weren’t fixed to the caps themselves!". How could you tell by looking at photographs and without looking behind the peak, or inside the headband, how the badge is fixed?!

Hi Taff,

Your images are excellent and at last all becomes clear.

I have to admit that apart from a single modern image (RE) that did not feature the peak in detail I have only seen black and white photos of the period in which these caps were worn.

I believe that these caps weren't popular when in use but I have always admired them and I'm very pleased to have learned something significant from your examples, thank you.

Rob,

To add to your suggestion, let's not forget the slouch hat!?

Regards.

Ry

[Alan O]

Chaps,

if I may say that this is an excellent thread and I have learned a lot.

Well done.

Alan

[chief_chum]

My pleasure Gents.
If any of you have photographs of Suffolk Regiment soldiers wearing the metal 'Pagri Badge' on a FSH, or a Slouch Hat, I would love to see them.
Cheers,
Taff

[orasot]

Magnificent stuff this, excellent detailed pics Taff, thanks,
Wilf.