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  #46  
Old 24-07-21, 03:35 AM
trueblue trueblue is offline
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Any body have example of this AFC Patch
An example turned up on Facebook a while back it was embroidered on Khaki Jean Material
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  #47  
Old 24-07-21, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
...some later AIF orders where the addition of the 'RAA' scroll badge was authorised for wear - I read that the Heavy Artillery personnel enlisted (almost to a man) in the AIF which may be why they were allowed to maintain official/authorised use of their badge...so, as I understand it, from 25th March 1916, and later the inclusion for the Seige Artillery from the 28th January 1918, no other distinctive unit badges were regulation within the AIF - however such orders were regularly ignored, as evidenced within the photographic record...these RAA scroll badges were also manufactued in the UK - have collected several variations/finishes of them...military metal badges during the Great War period were authorised in oxidised copper finish for the AIF, and gilt for the Australian Military Force - even the skill-at-arms/trade/prize badges, which are quite rare to secure...however, it should be noted that the AIF was not merely an overseas copy of the domestic AMF...(8{
Hi Martin,

The badge for the Australian Siege Brigade was authorised by Orders for Australian Imperial Force issued with Military Order 359/1915 of 22 June 1915 and was declared obsolescent (not of current manufacture, stocks of which will not be replaced) by Price Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries 1919-20.

The badge was identical to the collar badge of the permanent RAA.

About half the strength of the Royal Australian Garrison Artillery were taken along with some members of the Royal Australian Field Artillery, and they were maintained to establishment by men who enlisted especially in the RAGA as reinforcements to the siege brigade, or personnel of the militia Australian Garrison Artillery who had served for one year and volunteered for the siege brigade. The reinforcements were roughly 50% ex-RAGA and 50% ex-AGA. The Reserve Brigade Australian Artillery in UK was also drawn on for reinforcements. It should be noted that the Siege Brigade was a unit wholly of the AIF, not the Permanent Military Forces as is often stated in Australia. Its men, regardless of military service in the Australian Army, had to volunteer for and be accepted into the AIF.

Keith
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  #48  
Old 24-07-21, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by trueblue View Post
Any body have example of this AFC Patch
An example turned up on Facebook a while back it was embroidered on Khaki Jean Material
No, sorry I don't nor have I seen one. There has been a previous thread on this badge if I recall, and a different photograph of it in wear.

Keith
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  #49  
Old 24-07-21, 09:50 AM
fromelles fromelles is offline
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Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
...however, it should be noted that the AIF was not merely an overseas copy of the domestic AMF...
The possibility of participating in a war on foreign soil wasn't something that caught Australia by surprise, Standing Orders for Mobilization were about from well before the war. The fact that the Defence Act restricted the Citizen Forces of the AMF from serving outside Australia was the reason for the creation of the AIF. The structure of the Units of the AIF was based the Citizen Forces of the AMF, the authority being the Australian War Establishments (1912) and with it its rank structure and with the actual description of the badges from the Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing (1912).

A lack of descriptions (in the AIF Orders) of Rank/Proficiency/Trade badges to be used in the AIF is not evidence they weren't authorised for use, but evidence that they didn't require promulgating in the first place? For example, there are descriptions of badges (and how it's to be worn) when the ranks of WO Class I and WO Class II were created (1 March 1916), but nothing in AIF Order for Corporal, Sergeant or Lieutenant etc.

I don't believe the wearing of trade or proficiency badges was done without approval, even if not specifically written up in the AIF Orders, it was brought straight across from the AMF. When the practice of wearing unapproved items of dress was brought to notice of the authorities (see attached) it would be addressed: A good example is the embroidered 'AUSTRALIA'. Another example is the unauthorised wearing of the corps letters and numerals after the introduction of colour patches. There are at least two occasions in which the AIF Orders state that the titles must no longer be worn. However there is plenty of photographic evidence of patches and titles being worn together by troops returning in Australia as late as 1919/20 ... wherever there are rules there are those willing to flaunt them.

There is no doubt that there are certain trade/proficiency badges that aren't mentioned in the Standing Orders for Dress of the AMF, nor mentioned anywhere else (or at least haven't been brought to light) within Australian service, there is plenty of photographic evidence of badges being worn that there is no mention of (eg Scout badge and Pipers badge). Whether these badges were worn with the Unit's blessing or was the decision of the individual is unknown.

Dan
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File Type: jpg AIF Order 476:17.jpg (57.3 KB, 5 views)
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  #50  
Old 24-07-21, 11:56 AM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
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Attachment 254848

Attachment 254849

The A.I.F. Standing Orders are a mine of information...you are correct about the unauthorised use of the worsted: "AUSTRALIA"...

No 1481. 10th January, 1917. Dress.
Attention is directed to various irregularities in regard to the dress of members of the A.I.F. Greater care must be exercised by Commanding Officers in seeing that their men are properly dressed and turned out, and that unauthorised adornments and arrangements of clothing are not permitted.

1. Felt hats must be worn turned up, with the Australian badge fastened on the side.
2. Overcoats must be buttoned up or carried.
3. The practice of wearing worsted Australias on the shoulders of greatcoats must cease. There is no authority for this, nor is the worsted Australia a regulation issue.
3. Gold stripes to indicate wounds are not, and must not be, worn on the sleeve of greatcoats.

(the fourth item is incorrectly repeated as '3.' in the original printing)


No. 5324 6th July 1918, Physical and Bayonet Training Instructors, Distinguishing Badge.
Approval is given to the wearing of the "crossed swords" badge by members of the A.I.F. who are qualified P.T. and B.T. Instructors with Aldershot certificates, as authorized by the British Army.
In connection with the above order, it is to be noted that the mere possession of an Aldershot certificate does not entitle the holder to wear the badge, for which only those N.C.Os are eligible whose certificates have been endorsed by the Superintendent of Gymnasia or by his command assistants.
Indents for badges will be submitted by units accordingly.

Authority: D.A.G. A.I.F. 15/124, 24th June 1918.


...as to the wearing of distinctive unit items without prior A.I.F. authorization, the photographic record shows that this was ever the case...unofficial distinctive unit badges (which must/may have been paid for out of Regimental Funds and there are enough examples with manufacturer's identifications upon such items) must have had a request made before a die was cut and a limited number being produced then sold...when it comes to metal trade/skill/qualification identifications, the A.I.F. were to wear these in oxidised copper - some few of which I have been able to secure over the years...wouldn't these would need authorization before being produced in sufficient numbers and in the required finish from orders placed by the Department of Defence procurement(?)...I have photos of Australians, dotted among a large group photo of British Army graduates on one trade course or another, proudly wearing their new gilt-finish badge upon their right sleeve...some of the trade badges were never authorised in A.I.F. Standing Orders - so if the authority had not been given, did a manufacturer, before being guaranteed a return on their investment, take the expense to produce then have the batch inspected/approved for an unofficial item?...did the Australian manufacturers speculate in this way?...

(8{
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  #51  
Old 24-07-21, 11:59 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fromelles View Post
A lack of descriptions (in the AIF Orders) of Rank/Proficiency/Trade badges to be used in the AIF is not evidence they weren't authorised for use, but evidence that they didn't require promulgating in the first place? For example, there are descriptions of badges (and how it's to be worn) when the ranks of WO Class I and WO Class II were created (1 March 1916), but nothing in AIF Order for Corporal, Sergeant or Lieutenant etc.
I think Dan is correct, the Contracts Accepted for manufacture of items of insignia for the AIF during the early part of the war definitely show many of the trade/rank/proficiency badges to have been officially manufactured especially for this force.

Keith
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  #52  
Old 24-07-21, 02:08 PM
fromelles fromelles is offline
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Originally Posted by MartinRF View Post
...the Third Division memo for the 'TM' in a wreath, in worsted, is attached...the various standing orders for the other badges for bombers are also attached - this must be the only skill-at-arms badge that Officers in the A.I.F. ever wore(?)...
Surely the date on the 3rd Div memo should read '1916' ...

I don't think I've ever seen a photo of an officer wearing a bomber's badge. If you have a photo I'd be very interested to see.

I've seen officers wearing the blue TM grenade, which is really a distinguishing badge just like the crossed guns of the MG Companies and Battalions so not quite the same.

Dan
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  #53  
Old 24-07-21, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
I think Dan is correct, the Contracts Accepted for manufacture of items of insignia for the AIF during the early part of the war definitely show many of the trade/rank/proficiency badges to have been officially manufactured especially for this force.

Keith
Keith makes a good point, the successful contracts contained within the Commonwealth Gazette show a great selection of items specifically earmarked for the AIF.

I haven't had a look at them for quite some time, but will have another search over the next few days.

Dan
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  #54  
Old 25-07-21, 10:50 AM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
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...here is my example of a photo of this badge in wear on the shortened greatcoat for vehicle/cart personnel - your image shows an AFC member wearing it...never seen/had anyone identify one over here in the UK or in collections - RFC or otherwise...(8{
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  #55  
Old 25-07-21, 11:10 AM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
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AIF_20210725_102920_570.jpg

IMG_20210725_111110_081.jpg
...am very much looking forward to the listing of identified items of insignia manufactured in Australia for the AIF...have been picking them up over here for 35+ years - this is nearly my sum total of trade/skill-at-arms badges, apart from a few duplicates...deciding on what is AIF and what is not it is at often times a tricky enterprise because the British Light Infantry regiments also wore blackened badges during the Great War - both trade and rank...they still do...also attached is an AMF order for the wearing of the Scout identification badge...I had a long personal association with an AWM curator who always made clear to me the difference between AMF and AIF dress regulations, and subsequent items...he also spoke of an instance of a Light Horseman wearing the Baden-Powell designed Scout badge (i.e. that which was influenced by the design of the north pointer of a compass) in a well-known publishing historian's private collection of photographs - but although often being told about it, he never managed to be shown it...(8{
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  #56  
Old 25-07-21, 11:33 AM
trueblue trueblue is offline
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I believe Keith is Correct in this Patch being Unnoficial
Most likely made by the Australian Weaving Company
This Patch is held by the Aviation Museum WA
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  #57  
Old 25-07-21, 12:23 PM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Wow, nice to see one, thanks for putting the image up.

I can't locate the original thread on this but I recall putting up a link to a National Archives of Australia file about a dealer in trouble for supplying items to AIF blokes at inflated prices.

One senior officer made a statement that a reinforcement draft to the AFC turned up wearing a badge nobody had seen or heard of. Possibly it was this one.
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  #58  
Old 25-07-21, 01:16 PM
trueblue trueblue is offline
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Keith I read your previous post on this patch
The photo is of 1433..A.M...Alexander Caldwell Aust Flying corps
He left Australia with the Feb 1917 Reinforcements
for the AFC
The Report/Case you mention brought against Morgan Kenny trading as Johnnie Morgan for illegal use of AFC badges is dated June 1917..
I think it is safe to assume this patch is what they are on about
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File Type: jpg IMG_20210725_223406.jpg (107.0 KB, 21 views)
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  #59  
Old 25-07-21, 11:05 PM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Ah, thanks.
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  #60  
Old 08-08-21, 10:52 AM
MartinRF MartinRF is offline
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...picked this up at a local militaria fair, today - made in the thicker 'Gamages' style of manufacture...it's only the second example that I have seen in 40+ years (and I bought that one, too)...(8{

TrenchMortar_20210808_110448_257.jpg

TrenchMortar_20210808_110503_779.jpg
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