BCR Cadet wearing hackle.

[Voltigeur]

A photograph taken at the Vernon Army Cadet Training Centre in 2005, shows a British Columbia Regt. cadet wearing the cap badge with a blue(?) hackle. Since when is the BCR entitled or allowed to wear a hackle on the beret???
Jo
http://www.armycadethistory.com/Vern...g17_ECoy13.jpg

On left,H/Lt.Col Doug Walton,OMM,CD with Cdt Steven Liu of 2381 BCR (Irish) Royal Canadian(Army) Cadet Corps.

[irishhorse]

The 2381 Irish fusiliers of canada RCACC, were retitled 2381 BCR (Irish Fusiliers) RCACC in June 2002. A green hackle is worn, along with a green shamrock backing to the BCR cap badge. BCR cloth shoulder titles are also worn. As far as I know offically anyone below the rank of cpl. wear the RCACC cap badge, and no hackle ?.

[Voltigeur]

Thanks Irish for the information.Now,I wonder why no canadian member had this information.
Cheers
Jo

[Wyn vdSchee]

Sorry Jo, but I have not been lurking for a day or two so I did not see your post.The BCR were officially amalgamated with the Irish Fusiliers of Canada a few years ago - unfortunately I am not certain of the exact date. Perhaps fellow member Phil Herring could enlighten us.

The Directorate of History and Heritage has been urging active regiments to amalgamate with those on the Supplementary Order of Battle in order to clear the latter off the books. The other one that has occurred is the 19th Alberta Dragoons with The South Alberta Light Horse. One that I know is being pushed is the 14th Canadian Hussars with The Saskatchewan Dragoons, and another I have heard mutterings about is The Royal Regina Rifle Regiment and The South Saskatchewan Regiment.

With the amalgamation of the BCR and the Vancouver Irish, there may have been some adoption of Irish dress distinctions by the BCR.

For Irish Horse: Generally, all members of a cadet corps wear the cap badge of the sponsoring unit, regardless of rank. The Royal Canadian Army Cadets cap badge is usually worn only if the sponsoring organization does not have a regimental cap badge - a Royal Canadian Legion branch for example.

Wyn

[Voltigeur]

Hi Wyn thanks for thee explanation but, wouldn't be easier to just "write off" those units that have been inactive for a number of years instead of keeping them on a list in the hope,I guess, of reactivating them in case of another conflict? Some of these units have been inactive since the early '60s. Are we to end up like our British friends with so many big regiments "a la Royal Regiment of Scotland"???
Jo

[irishhorse]

Hi Wyn. I've seen photos of the BCR (Irish Fusiliers) cadets wearing the RCACC cap badge, with others wearing the BCR cap badge. Both with the shamrock backing. Perhaps someone has more information on this ?.

[Wyn vdSchee]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Hi Wyn thanks for thee explanation but, wouldn't be easier to just "write off" those units that have been inactive for a number of years instead of keeping them on a list in the hope,I guess, of reactivating them in case of another conflict? Some of these units have been inactive since the early '60s. Are we to end up like our British friends with so many big regiments "a la Royal Regiment of Scotland"???
Jo

Jo,
The problem arose in 1964/65 when the Supplementary Order of Battle was created as a kind of holding pool for regiments that were reduced to nil strength for various reasons. Some, like the Victoria Rifles of Canada, were at the top of their game in terms of efficiency and strength, but literally drew the short straw in the numbers game - there were proportionally too many Anglo regiments in Montreal and one had to go. In other cases the regiments were in their death throes and were no longer viable - the 7th/11th Hu8ssars in eastern Quebec, amalgamated with The Sherbrooke Regiment to form The Sherbrooke Hussars. In other cases, there was no regiment conveniently close to amalgamate with, such as The South Saskatchewan Regiment and the 14th Canadian Hussars, so they were simply transferred to the Supplementary Order of Battle. Some, I think, refused to amalgamate, like The Winnipeg Grenadiers and the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards, hoping they would some day be revived. In fact, only one has ever been reactivated: The Halifax Rifles.
The Supplementary Order of Battle (SOB) was simply a political sop to divert criticism from Paul Hellyer, the minister of national defence, and the Liberal government. It does not appear there was ever any intention to bring any of these regiments back. However, the SOB became institutionalized and took on a life of its own, with everyone, including National Defence, the defence lobby groups, and the regimental associations, pretending that they believed the regiments would one day be reactivated.
That's my take on the whole shoddy history.
Wyn

[Phillip Herring]

The Irish Fusiliers of Canada (The Vancouver Regiment) were removed from the Supplementary Order of Battle and amalgamated with The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) on 13 June 2002.

Canadian Regiments have been amalgamated/broken up to form new regiments in the past. In the 1920 reorganization of the militia, the 6th Regiment and 104th Regiment were amalgamated to form the 1st British Columbia Regiment. The 1st BC Regiment consisted of three battalions - the main purpose being to perpetuate the CEF battalions, 7th, 29th and 47th. Veterans serving in the post war militia felt a stronger connection to the CEF battalions that they had fought with than with the pre-war militia units. The 1st BC Regiment was later broken up to form the BC Regiment, Vancouver Regiment and Westminster Regiment.

By necessity, Canadian militia regiments are "fluid" entities. They have to be able to change according to such factors as government policy, economics and demographics/population. If the economy takes a downturn and the 20-40 year old males have to find employment in another geographic area, the local militia unit may not be viable. In the case of the Irish Fusiliers, by 1964-65 they were competing in the Vancouver area with the BC Regiment, Seaforths and 15th Field Regiment. The Seaforths had money/prestige and a fighting record from both world wars as did the BC Regiment (but they were armour). Although the Irish had two active battalions in the 1939-45 War, they were part of the home defence divisions and did not see combat. In the post war period the Irish were dispersed with companies (formerly batteries) in Prince Rupert and Powell River - quite a distance from Vancouver, and they had lost their armoury in a fire - infrastructure is expensive. The Seaforths had a great deal of political/financial clout - Bell-Irving, Clark, Hoffmeister, Fulton, Bonner, Merritt - the Irish could not compete with the more powerful infantry regiment who also had a centrally located armoury. When the order came from Ottawa to make cuts, the Irish really didn't stand a chance.

The plus side is that amalgamating the Irish Fusiliers with the BC Regiment is not an unnatural marriage since The Vancouver Regiment came about from the breaking up of the 1st BC Regiment and was subsequently amalgamated with the Irish Fusiliers. The Irish Fusiliers' heritage is being outwardly preserved since The BC Regiment has incorporated the maple leaf and Harp of Erin device of the Irish Fusiliers into their camp flag as well as putting up new collar badges with the harp and maple leaf.
All battle honours are transferred to the BC Regiment, but what is even more important (I believe), the lineages of the 11th Regiment, 68th Earl Grey's Own Rifles and the CEF Battalions (29th,30th,121st,102nd, 158th) are perpetuated through an active regiment. Much better than the alternatives - disbandment or Supplementary Order of Battle where only the enthusiast is aware that these units existed.

The Irish Fusiliers name was carried on by the cadet corps in Richmond and they continued to wear the Irish capbadge with a green shamrock backing (take note when "q/c" Irish Fusiliers badges come up for sale - they are not that scarce) as well as the shoulder flash with the merrowed edge. Allowing the cadets to wear the green hackle is another nice way of continuing regimental traditions.
With regards to Army Cadets' capbadges, I have seen other cadet corps (PWOR in Kingston!) where junior cadets are wearing the RC Army Cadet capbadge while other cadets wear the badge of the sponsoring regiment. This may be due to availability or possibly cadets are required to complete a certain level of training before "earning" the right to wear the regimental capbadge.

Phil

[Wyn vdSchee]

Well stated Phil!
Wyn

[Voltigeur]

Well Wyn and Phillip, I thank you, both,for the clear and concise way that you explained the intricacies of the SOB and the ways of the military used amalgamation in the past.
Regards to both.
Jo

[servicepub]

... possibly cadets are required to complete a certain level of training before "earning" the right to wear the regimental capbadge.

This is my understanding from the several cadet corps in Eastern Ontario also.

[D. Nicholson]

Greetings,

I am from the 2381 BCR (Irish Fusilier) Cadet Corps, and stumbled upon this post when searching for a source to buy hackles.

In 2002 the Corps was granted authorization, as the previous page said, to change official affiliation to The British Columbia Regiment. In Canada, similar to some other countries, Cadet Corps (Army only) are generally expected to have an affiliated unit. With the exception of Atlantic Canada where many Army Cadet Corps are affiliated to a public school nearly every Canadian Army Cadet Corps is attached to a regular force or primary reserve unit. Where possible, by money and geography, these units provide varying levels of support to the Cadet Corps. Throughout the 1990's many aspects of "operational (combat) training" were removed and replaced from Canada's Cadet Movement but there are still many aspects of military training throughout the program, and the relationships with the affiliated unit are often important.

In 2003 the Cadet Corps actually made the move to The British Columbia Regiment formally, and was granted a new banner and permission from the Director of Cadet (D Cdts), who is de facto the "boss" of Cadets (anyone very familiar with the porgramme will realize that's actually quite inaccurate - but in very general terms it is close enough) to wear the black beret of the BCR's, the hackle and shamrock as perpetuating symbols of the Vancouver Regiment. Cadets continued to wear read sashes, and white belts.

We were an anomaly as far as both Canadian military tradition and Army Cadet Dress Regulations were concerned as the hybrid model of Armoured/Infantry certainly is not encouraged. We did wear these items with the approval of both the affiliated unit, and our Cadet programme chain of command.

Recently we have switched again, on our own accord essentially, and now wear only items from The British Columbia Regiment. Cadets will continue to wear the hackle and shamrock, however gone already are the white belts and sashes. Moreover we are about to switch side flashes. Currently we wear:
"British Columbia Regiment"
We pay for these.
However soon we will wear new, government produced flashes which will read:
"BCR (Irish Fusiliers) [next line] 2381"
This change should have already happened, however a production error has delayed it (Our Corps administrative identification number, 5333, was used in lieu of 2381).

As far as hackles are concerned, we cannot find any to purchase. There was one supplier in Canada that was grossly unacceptable, and basically sold us garbage. I have tried making various contacts in Western Europe to find them however hardly hear back. I may have just found a source in Canada, and am following up next week.

Shamrocks are produced through a highly scientific process of finding green felt, using a tracer and black pen to outline the shamrock, and then getting an adult staff member with some time, or eager cadets awaiting their new uniform item to cut them out. They look quite sharp. Soon we will be investing in a press as we have received a generous donation to purchase ceremonial uniform items.

Finally, Cadets will start wearing the BCR lanyard at the rank of Sgt, starting in 2009/2010 training year.

The BCR cap badge is to be worn by Cpl+, however our supply is inconsistent so that policy isn't universal. The metal army cadet cap badge no longer exists, and has been replaced by a cloth variant.

If anyone has a source of hackles, I would love to know about it!

Cheers

[Voltigeur]

Mr. Nicholson thank you for your explanation about the BCR/Irish Fusilier connection.I appreciate the distinction now.As for your search for green hackles I have taken the liberty of including a UK-based website known to some of our members who did business with them, and a link to William Scully's (I know that up to a few years ago they still had green hackles in stock but at about $15.00 ea.)
Regards and Good Luck.
Jo
William Scully's: http://www.williamscully.ca/gallery2...mes_2.jpg.html

The UK-based Co.: http://www.military-badges.co.uk/Hackles.htm

[John Mulcahy]

This source may also be useful - however I have not dealt with them so cannot comment on their service.

John

http://www.cadetdirect.com/products2.php?subcat=384

[servicepub]

You can try here also
http://www.theplumery.co.uk/modern%2...y%20plumes.htm