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#31
18-11-12, 04:24 PM
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At no time did the TS have anything to do with the RA until the reorganisation of the TA in 1947, as already stated by TI. . In 1939 the duplicate battalion of 9th Durham L.I., - "12th Bn, Durham L.I."(raised 31/3/1939)had 'Tyneside Scottish' added to the title, which lasted into 1940, when it sought and successfully gained affiliation with the Black Watch, as 1st Bn, Tyneside Scottish, Black Watch(RHR) - 1st February 1940. To correct it even further, when the 1939 duplications were expected, the TSOCA, had already approached the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, with a proposal to form a TS Battalion within the RNF, it's original home, which for reasons unknown was rejected by the RNF. At no-time was the TS ever designated to become a RA unit - it was raised and served purely as an infantry battalion. It arrived in France on the 22nd April 1940 served with 70th Bde/23rd Div at Dunkirk and later moved to Iceland as part of the 49th(West Riding)Div. Although affiliated to the Black Watch, the Battalion was still administered by County Durham Territorial Association and I've been through all of the Minute Books for this period and there is no mention of it becoming a LAA unit. Last edited by Graham Stewart; 18-11-12 at 04:37 PM. 
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#32
18-11-12, 07:08 PM
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Hi Guys,
This era not my sort of thing at all so I can't really comment on this particular unit. But, I have to say, that when I was at the Imperial War Museum going through their records I was told that one can never argue with sealed pattern cards as the information that they hold is absolute. Regards Chris
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#34
18-11-12, 07:18 PM
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I suspect (again, not my era) that they would have used the same card but changed the unit title by hand, This is common with A/A pattern cards where a unit name is changed or if the badge is taken on by a different unit. Regards Chris
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#35
19-11-12, 12:56 AM
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Chris, Unit title on card officially changed, that is a much more logical explanation than the alternative.
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#36
19-11-12, 01:09 AM
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In cases of conflicting evidence the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate. This is what I think: That the unit started life on paper as per the standard pattern card in 1940 with the badge as shown being: 670th LAA Regt (RA) (Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment) However, the unit was never formed then and the card was never updated with a following unit's name that was to be issued the same badge at a later date. Regardless of its history the card is a very interesting piece. It is one of only four or five non A/A badges that I own. Regards Chris
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#37
19-11-12, 01:19 PM
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#38
19-11-12, 06:45 PM
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Well there is evidence of the 670th L.A.A. Regt, R.A. being proposed in 1940 via the pattern card that I own. As the Imperial War Museum says you can't argue with pattern cards and I have to agree with them. Its a bit like The Royal Regiment of Gloucestershire and Hampshire in the late 1960's early 1970's. Colours made, Master and Standard patterns created, badges manufactured for an initial issue but the unit was never formed. Suggest that the same happened here with the badge being allocated out to a different unit at a later date. Regards Chris
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#39
19-11-12, 07:32 PM
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Hopefully in the next day or two I'll be bringing more evidence to the table, because basically you can't have units appearing that simply aren't there. By 1940 the expansion of the T.A. had been completed, with no further plans to expand the T.S., who were already a duplicate Battalion of 9th DLI. It's not a case of the unit never ever being formed - the unit was already there - an infantry unit - firstly as 12th Bn, D.L.I and then as of February 1940, 1st Bn, Tyneside Scottish, B.W.(RHR), and it continued as such until 1944, when it was placed in suspended animation. By the time that date appeared on the card - the battalion was already mobilised for service in France. On top of which I saw photo's of 12th Bn, DLI many years ago taken in 1940 among a friends collection, and if I remember correctly the T.S. badge was already being worn. I was even offered them, but because they weren't NF, and now being of DLI lineage I turned them down.
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#40
19-11-12, 07:58 PM
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We are going to have to differ on opinions. Pattern cards are only created after a particular design is (was) approved by the (then) War Office Dress Committee for a specific unit. For the pattern card to have been created the unit must have physically existed or have been proposed for creation. For some reason, and I have no idea why, but this badge was authorised for issue to a unit called: 670th LAA Regt (RA) (Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment) This happened sometime in 1940 when the badge was sealed. Now, as I have said before in my The Royal Regiment of Gloucestershire and Hampshire example, the 670th LAA Regt (RA) may never have got beyond the stage where the master and standard pattern cards were sealed in 1940 but the 670th LAA Regt (RA) was authorised for formation with its own badge. However, as you point out, the 670th LAA Regt (RA) was never physically formed at this time and I have no problem with your stance on this. But 'on paper' it seems that it was proposed as proven by the standard pattern card that I own. This is a piece of official military documentation that cannot be ignored just because it does not fit in with the current historical record on the 670th LAA Regt (RA). I would suggest that a possible amendment to the 670th LAA Regt (RA) history could be something like this: Although formed at a later date, it is believed that the 670th LAA Regt (RA) was proposed for formation as early as 1940. This is borne out by the discovery of a sealed pattern card, dated 1940, with the unit designation of: 670th LAA Regt (RA) (Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment) Would this be an acceptable stance to take? Regards Chris
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#41
19-11-12, 08:43 PM
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Here is an image of the Tyneside Scottish Pattern Card alongside are cards for two other items. To my eye they are of similar "vintage" with identical distinctive handwriting and signatures. Unfortunately one appears undated and the other is dated 1950. Of course it it possible that the same employees completed pattern cards between 1940 and 1950 - but perhaps the Tyneside Card is incorrectly dated?
Light Anti Aircraft - I stand by for Flak! Tim And another for the King's African Rifles dated 1955
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest." Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 19-11-12 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Add another image
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#42
19-11-12, 08:57 PM
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The answer of the dates of the card would be found in the Pattern Register and reconciled against the pattern numbers on the card. Looking at the spread of pattern numbers though, my card pattern number, 11473, dated 19 April 1940 seems to be accurate when compared with pattern no 13909, dated 29 Sept 50. This is a spread of 2436 new patterns over the 10 years. Would this be expected over the 10 years (1940-1950) in question? I note that the King's Africa Rifles is at 17000 and only five years later. Do we have an pattern experts on the forum? Regards Chris
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#43
19-11-12, 09:14 PM
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Hi Guys,
Do we have any other pattern cards owned by members dated close to 1940? If so, is the pattern number on these cards close to 11473? If it is then it would imply that my pattern card has the correct date applied to it and that the proposal for a unit in 1940 called: 670th LAA Regt (RA) (Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment) is in fact quite valid. Regards Chris
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#44
19-11-12, 09:21 PM
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Chris,
Valid point on the Pattern Numbers which do seem to run sequentially and chronologically. I have in my collection: Pattern 16314 Badges Arm L in Wreath Black on Rifle Green CB2730 dated 14/06/54 Pattern 17000 Badges Arm LG in Wreath Black on Green 4 KAR CB7393 dated 21/11/55 Pattern 17279 Badges Arm Wheel Black on Cameronian Green CB7903 dated 19/11/56 Pattern 17281 Badges Arm Wheel Dark Green on Maize CB7905 dated 19/11/56 In the Catalogue of Clothing and Necessaries 1949 is the entry: BADGES TAM O'SHANTER Tyneside Scottish (Black Watch) CB1380 (price 8d!) Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#45
19-11-12, 09:25 PM
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If we can get hold of the pattern register we could get this cracked. I'm sure that someone somewhere will have access. Regards Chris
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