Guards Machine gun badge.

[dragonz18]

Mike,
I think wear here ,rather than pressure ,as there is the sign of a crack in the back die, just under the thistle. Same on mine also ,though a little bigger & by other signs it would indicate that mine was a slightly later strike in the same production run.???
Have never seen or heard of a genuine all brass version in almost 40 years of collecting, but who knows, I guess it's possible, but not very likely?
I think it was KLR who mentioned that it was generally bi-metal badges that were made in 'all-brass' ,to save on production time ,rather than the often quoted metal shortage theory of the past, including positive documented evidence.
Cheers !
Steve

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by dragonz18

Mike,
I think wear here ,rather than pressure ,as there is the sign of a crack in the back die, just under the thistle. Same on mine also ,though a little bigger & by other signs it would indicate that mine was a slightly later strike in the same production run.???
Have never seen or heard of a genuine all brass version in almost 40 years of collecting, but who knows, I guess it's possible, but not very likely?
I think it was KLR who mentioned that it was generally bi-metal badges that were made in 'all-brass' ,to save on production time ,rather than the often quoted metal shortage theory of the past, including positive documented evidence.
Cheers !
Steve

An interesting conundrum. It might even have been a pre-production test piece, or even submitted as a specimen for the Dress Committee to view before approving the final pattern (I have seen this occur in my own service). One should not always assume re-strike as a first option. I wonder if the Guards Museum could comment. Such badges would have been made in very small numbers anyway, as within a year of formation the 'Machine Gun Guards' were merged with the Household Cavalry machine gunners into the Guards Machine Gun Regt with of course an entirely new badge and a motto that interestingly is still used today and imprinted on all Guards rank stars (Garter Stars).

[Mike]

Originally Posted by dragonz18

Mike,
I think wear here ,rather than pressure ,as there is the sign of a crack in the back die, just under the thistle. Same on mine also ,though a little bigger & by other signs it would indicate that mine was a slightly later strike in the same production run.???
Cheers !
Steve

How observant of you, yes it is a die crack. Fascinating.

[Saddle tree maker]

It's difficult to tell from the photo, but the red enamel looks the same as on the Surrey yeomanry copies (Brass and red enamel).
But, that aside, why would NCO's wear it in brass, surely their badge would be either W/metal and enamel or S.plate and enamel. Wouldn't it ?
Are there any other instances were the OR's badge was white metal, but the NCO's wore the same badge in brass ?
STM.

[jeep]

Any thoughts on this one? Brass, voided, red felt backing held in by two blades.

[dragonz18]

Indeed,as STM notes ,NCO's usually use badges of superior rather than inferior metals ,to the O/R's examples.
It also seems a little strange to instigate a new pattern badge & also change it's metal, in a fairly short space of time of the same year ?
Cheers !
Steve

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by dragonz18

Indeed,as STM notes ,NCO's usually use badges of superior rather than inferior metals ,to the O/R's examples.
It also seems a little strange to instigate a new pattern badge & also change it's metal, in a fairly short space of time of the same year ?
Cheers !
Steve

It could I suppose have been a 'specimen' for consideration by the dress committee or maybe originally plated (although there ought to have been traces of the plating even after all this time). Perhaps someone could send the image to the Guards Museum and ask for their opinion and/or a search of records. Any news re the pin scratch test yet ?

[Saddle tree maker]

Originally Posted by jeep

Any thoughts on this one? Brass, voided, red felt backing held in by two blades.

John,
I know you have the badge in front of you, but from the photo it looks to be discoloured white metal.
If it is actually white metal, and with the voiding, blades etc, I would suggest that this badge would be a better candidate for one worn by NCO's.
If I am mistaken and it is indeed brass, it throws up another anomoly and for a such short lived regiment, they had an awful lot of variant's.
In K&K, it states that the enamel badge worn by officer's was made from silver (Solid or plate, I couldn't say).
STM.

[KLR]

I would say that whatever it is, it does not appear to be an OFFICIAL issue !
(which still leaves all sorts of possibilities !)

[dragonz18]

STM,
I used to have one of those. It was made up of several (3 or 4) separate pieces, all in hallmarked stamped silver, plus the finely enamaled back disk, all held in place with small lugs & a pin, like most Guards Officer's badges.
Probably the most handsome badge I have ever owned.
Cheers !
Steve

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by KLR

I would say that whatever it is, it does not appear to be an OFFICIAL issue !
(which still leaves all sorts of possibilities !)

" which still leaves all sorts of possibilities "......Precisely! And I am glad you said it. This was a war in which the Motor Branch of the MGC had their first badges made up by a local garage near Bisley in Surrey and that was not much before the Guards Machine Gunners were forming up. It was a busy time and the watchword was improvise and overcome so we should not rule out variations in a unit that had such a short life.

[Saddle tree maker]

Sounds like a really nice badge, Steve, it's a shame you no longer have it ( I've let go badges I now wish I hadn't ).
Toby,
I fully understand that in some instances during both wars, the need for improvision and badges being made 'out of the loop' of normal manufacturing - Commando badges made from spoons etc - but this badge is cleanly die struck and with the added enamelling it suggests a badge manufacturer, so it does leave us with a puzzle if it is indeed genuine - who would have wore it ?
I personally don't think NCO's or Warrant officer's would have (If Jeeps badge turns out to be white metal and genuine, I'm going with that for these rank's), which would leave officer's and other rank's and to be honest I can't see them wearing it either, so whichever way you look at it, this brass badge doesn't seem to fit, unless you bring in the restrike phenomena, IMO of course.
STM.

[jeep]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

John,
I know you have the badge in front of you, but from the photo it looks to be discoloured white metal.
If it is actually white metal, and with the voiding, blades etc, I would suggest that this badge would be a better candidate for one worn by NCO's.
If I am mistaken and it is indeed brass, it throws up another anomoly and for a such short lived regiment, they had an awful lot of variant's.
In K&K, it states that the enamel badge worn by officer's was made from silver (Solid or plate, I couldn't say).
STM.

OK Gents. Interesting reading and opinions. My badge is definitely brass and although I bow to greater experience, with my lesser knowledge the badge does 'feel good.' I have had a good poke around it and there is no trace of any other metal/coating/treatment; just brass. The voids have scour marks in them , but too course for a file, which would have had to be small. So the jury is out on this one, if it is a fake then someone has gone to an awful lot of trouble. If 'genuine' I suppose it depends on your definition. From my experience soldiers are never satisfied with as issued items and will always modify etc etc if it will make it look better or to be different. Maybe this is the case here.

[Saddle tree maker]

Ah well, that blows my theory out of the water ! LOL.
I'll have to hand it over to more experienced members, because I'm stumped.
STM.

[Toby Purcell]

We need comment from Guards Museum. Dress regulations would have been of much less import at the time we are talking about, even in the Guards. I still say do not be obsessed with re-strikes. There were makers variations and we have not yet had sight of sealed pattern, or a published reference to the badges worn over only a 12 month period +/-.