Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Faugh-A-Ballagh

This is one of my Inniskillings ones. This came in a box of very poor quality WW2 dated restrikes. They had come from a gents oufitters and were simply replacement badges for soldiers in WW2. They are very obviously fakes - the quality of the metal is poor and the bi- metal examples aren't particularly well joined, however they would have passed muster on parade, and would have probably saved a few soldiers from being on a charge. But - this one was one of two very different ones amongst them. One was a bronze officer's Leeds Rifles cap badge, and Inniskilling Fusiliers. On the Inniskillings one, the metal was of very good quality, and had four good sweat holes on the rear. I've had it looked at, and the expert opinion was original and unissued. So what's the opinion here?

Hi FAB,

Apart from it appearing very fresh on the back, which I suppose could easily be explained if its been kept in good conditions inside a box for its whole life. I can see nothing wrong with it, the slider's a bit 'chunky' but this could be explained as it may well be a late badge being flag right made into the '50's. Like you say braze holes although not alway there on this pattern are there which is always nice IMO and present in a pattern I've seen before on genuine examples of these badges.

Nice find, well done.

Luke

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Hi Luke,
Thanks again. Yes I know what you mean about the back. I left it in that box for years and didn't really give it any thought. Dug it out about a year ago and nearly kicked myself for neglecting it for so long. Next time I'm visiting the folks, I must dig out that box of the old fakes, take a couple of happy snaps and post them on this, just to show how bad they are, although they are much better examples than certain sellers on ebay pass off as originals ! However, in the meantime, here's a few of my other Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers cap badges.

John

[Alan O]

I take it the 3rd badge is a FSC badge? FSC is not my area but I need to learn more.

Alan

[Luke H]

Also be interested in knowing if the WM Inniskilling fully die stamped?
Cheers,
Luke

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Alan and Luke,
I always was of the opinion that the third badge in the row was an officers cap badge from WW1. It came in the same batch as my WW1 Canadian badges (shown elsewhere), and was definitely from WW1. The white metal one is a more recent acquisition. But here are photos of the rears anyway.

John

[John Mulcahy]

No 3 is nice, original IMO, definately officers, what are the dimensions?

This type of design was the officers cap badge c. 1902 - 1927 found with both blades and loops. Was also used as a collar. Interesting variant , which I have not seen before, elongated "neck" to the grenade and round spread of flames.

John

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

No. 3 is 39mm x 16mm. I know it is definitely original as it came from a box of old badges from a family friend. It's one I have always been very fond off.

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

I picked this one up in London last week. Didn't pay a lot for it thankfully. Same dimensions as my other Inniskillings officers badge, although the flame pattern is marginally different. The big diference is the castle is brass. I've never seen one like that before. It has had a fairly substantial, but functional repair job done to it. I've no doubts about it's originality, so what's the general opinion?

John

[John Mulcahy]

For what it is worth I use the following guidelines for the flag left bi-metal psttern.

All genuine badges whether with loops or sliders should (I believe) have brazing holes. The grenade opening on all genuine badges appears to be narrower than on most of the fakes. Luke has already mentioned the fake with the flag joined to the castle but I have usually only seen this on the flag right example.

Cedric Heys is a very reputable dealer in my experience - one of the best, so I would not be worried about the "stock photo" statement. You will be able to return without issue if unhappy.

With regard to shoulder titles you need to look for the pattern shown below (two slightly different strikes shown).

John

[saintconor]

As I mentioned on my opening thread I am interested in matching the correct cap badge to medals/photos of my relatives.

Being from Derry the majority of my family have served with the local Regiment, The Skins.

My Great Grandfather Fusilier 6976124 John Patterson enlisted 3rd January 1928 and was discharged on 26th March 1934.

My Grans Cousin Fusilier 6978937 Alexander Hegarty enlisted 1938 and was KIA Burma in 1942.

My Great Uncle Fusilier Joseph Breslin - 5TH (TA) Bn, 1950's/60's

Have read through the forum and come across a lot on the Skins but it is very confusing.

Any help very much appreciated

Regards

Conor

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Hi Conor,
Most likely the Inniskilling Fusilier grenade badge with flag flying to right, although the one who served in the 1920's and 30's would probably have worn the one which was the plain Inniskilling Castle.
John Mulcahy is probably the man who will give you the definitive answer.
Have you read the excellent book Three Cheers for the Derry's about the Tenth Battalion in WW1?
I can highly recommend it.

All the best

John

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

The Grenade badge would have been worn on a navy blue caubeen on a red triangle with grey hackle

[saintconor]

Thanks John (Again)

I must admit that until today I had never know that the Skins went through a phase with just the castle and no grenade. Everyday is a school day. Would anyone have a picture of a soldier from this era as an example?

The Caubeen you mention, would it be like this one from the Skins website? Would this have been in use when Fus Hegarty joined in 1938 or would this have been a post WW2 thing? I dont suppose you know where these dark blue caubeens can be got?

I have indeed read "Three cheers for the Derrys". I got the hardback version and had it signed by the author. Definately a great book. For the WW1 period though my main interest is 6th Bn Royal Irish Regiment as this is the one most of my WW1 relatives served in. With my GG Grandfather Pte 2317 JJ Diver being killed in August 1916.

Thanks again for your interest

Regards

Conor

[John Mulcahy]

Faugh A Ballagh has it right. The sequence of forage cap badge designs for other ranks from 1898 to the 1960's is

The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers took the bi-metal grenade badge with flag to the viewer’s left into use in 1898 (at least that was when it was originally sealed). Worn in the forage cap until 1927 this badge comes with loops prior to c. 1903 and with slider there after. The so called all brass “economy” badge was introduced in 1916 to speed up/simplify production.

The regiment itself petitioned to change the design to a badge showing the castle only. The “Sprig of Shillelagh” Autumn 1945 carries an interesting discussion of the castle designs used by the regiment over the years. The level of detail contained is not of much use for badge researching however of note on page 76 is a discussion of how the white metal castle version came to be. It attributes the design to the 2 I.C. of the 1st Battalion, a Major W.E. Rothwell and it maintains that the project was an effort to standardise the castle design back to what was considered the "pure design". The article goes on to describe in detail the source of the design (a watercolour in Windsor castle) and the process by which the design was approved. It describes the outcome as a disaster. The badge was meant to be a 2 piece device with a long low castle.
The Castle badge was worn by all ranks (officers having a two piece version), and was universally hated.

On March 14th 1934 the regiment again petitioned the war office , this time to revert back to a grenade with white metal castle. WO32/3256 (available at the national archives has a series of memos from the Colonel of the regiment (Travers Clarke) requesting the reversion to a grenade badge stating that the Castle badge was unsuitable for several reasons including being, out of proportion , unsuitable for the bearskin ,counter productive to recruiting. etc..... He specifically asked for a change before the beginning of the next trooping season.

In that file the white metal castle badge is referenced as being approved on March 3rd 1927 by War Office letter 54/Infy/5871 (Q.E.G.7.b.).

The Grenade badge with WM castle superimposed and flag flying right was approved on May 8th 1934 by 54/Infy/7027(M.G.O.7.b). Firmin provided 3 samples of the grenade badge with flag right for this request for change, and thus I guess it is fair to speculate that they also produced the (un-marked) first production run.

Interestingly the War Office approval to move to the grenade badge dated May 8th 1934 notes that...
"with regard to paragraph 2(3) of your above quoted letter, the council desire me to point out that the "Castle of Enniskillen" badge was not authorized for wear with the fusilier cap (i.e. bearskin) when the change of badges was approved in 1927; the badge for this head-dress continued in the form of a grenade with the castle, mounted in silver, on the ball".

The regiment was required to buy all remaining stocks of the "castle badge" at vocabulary rates from the deputy director of Ordnance services at Didcot.

There is no reference as to why the flag changed direction but the regiment did specify the change of direction in correspondance 54/Infy/7027 dated 3 May 1934 to Firmin.

To sum up, other ranks wore

c. 1898 – c. 1927. The GM Grenade with WM castle flag to viewers left
c. 1927 – c. 1934. A WM Castle.
c. 1934 – c. 1960 The GM Grenade with WM castle flag to viewers left. By at least 1963 the regular battalion wore the North Irish Brigade cap badge.

The 5th battalion continued to wear the grenade with castle ultimately in anodised aluminium.

You will find subtly variations of the genade designs (attributable to makers variations) and a WW2 Plastic version along with a mis-spelling version of the post 1934 badge (which Alan O has a sample of).

John

I have a modest album here which might help understand the chronology of the designs http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...hp?albumid=293

[saintconor]

Just what I was after, thank you. And thanks again for answering my IG question some time back.

Regards

Conor