LRB ?

[Keith Blakeman]

Posted on the Great War Forum but surprisingly no replies as yet, hopefully our resident uniform members can help me?

No information on the back other than an Uncle Bert seated far left first row but someone has written LRB ? Over this is a post-it note stating LRB-yes, territorial service stars on lower arms.

I have a problem though as with the image enlarged the cap badge seems to be a bit more rounded than the post 1908 5th London Regiment (LRB) badge and seems to be more like a Rifle Brigade regulars. Can this photo be dated by the uniforms alone.

Also interesting to note the officer in the front row, sixth from left is wearing collar badges. The shoulder belt plates appear to have a King's crown but again look more larger and more rounded that the LRB pattern, the cord bosses have a Victorian crown.

Many thanks.

[41st]

Keith,
The medals should date it for you and the "S" clasp belts for anyone who has the information readily available.
Kevin

[Toby Purcell]

Perhaps it is one of the other London Regiment battalions from post 1908 that had a cap badge shaped like that of the Rifle Brigade. There were several. The snake buckle was fairly universal for rifles and the medal ribbons from SA would have been apparent on many pre 1908 RVs who saw service there.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Perhaps it is one of the other London Regiment battalions from post 1908 that had a cap badge shaped like that of the Rifle Brigade. There were several. The snake buckle was fairly universal for rifles and the medal ribbons from SA would have been apparent on many pre 1908 RVs who saw service there.

That narrows it down to the 8th (Post Office), 17th (Poplar & Stepney) & 19th (St.Pancras). If the photo is post 1908 then I'd say in all likelihood it's the 8th due to the collar badge on the officer which is circular and not a shield as worn by the 19th, also the other two regiments badges were generally blackened brass although nickel versions do exist.

Pre-1908 and there's a possibility it could be the Bloomsbury Rifles who's badge is very similar to the regular Rifle Brigade also.

Of course the uniforms could be the key but this is a field I know nothing about.

[Graham Stewart]

T.F. Rifles units are notorius to identify during this period and this is certainly a T.F. unit affiliated to the Rifle Brigade, rather than KRR.

Considering they are wearing the new peaked forage cap, I personally would go for post-1908, mainly due to the lack of Boer War vet's among them. Not all of the Medals being worn by the few among them appear to be Boer War either as one or two appear to be wearing the VLSGC.

[Toby Purcell]

The 8th seem like a very strong contender to me.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

T.F. Rifles units are notorius to identify during this period and this is certainly a T.F. unit affiliated to the Rifle Brigade, rather than KRR.

Considering they are wearing the new peaked forage cap, I personally would go for post-1908, mainly due to the lack of Boer War vet's among them. Not all of the Medals being worn by the few among them appear to be Boer War either as one or two appear to be wearing the VLSGC.

Not one shoulder title on show though, isn't that a bit unusual for a regiment kitted out in new dress?

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Not one shoulder title on show though, isn't that a bit unusual for a regiment kitted out in new dress?

Not at all, because all your titles were woven into the shoulder straps and it's not until the new pattern uniforms for the T.F. came into wear that you see metal titles. This occurs around 1909 and they come with plain shoulder straps, piped, with rounded ends, so that titles can be worn.

The regulars on the other hand continue with woven titles on the old pattern straps until the new 1913 pattern uniform is introduced with the plain unpiped 'pointed' shoulder strap, which it appears was never adopted by the T.F. due to the outbreak of War the following year.

NF 1913 Pattern - shoulder.jpg

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

Not at all, because all your titles were woven into the shoulder straps and it's not until the new pattern uniforms for the T.F. came into wear that you see metal titles. This occurs around 1909 and they come with plain shoulder straps, piped, with rounded ends, so that titles can be worn.

The regulars on the other hand continue with woven titles on the old pattern straps until the new 1913 pattern uniform is introduced with the plain unpiped 'pointed' shoulder strap, which it appears was never adopted by the T.F. due to the outbreak of War the following year.

Attachment 70896

Thanks Graham,

To clarify then, as an RV or VB unit they may have worn either embroided or metal titles (In the case of the 24th (Post Office) Middlesex RV they did wear blackened metal ones - I have one in my collection) but then there was a period around 1908-09 after the creation of the London Regiments that the older form of dress was still worn possibly with the new cap badge? The above based on the assumption that the photo is of the Post Office Rifles.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Thanks Graham,

To clarify then, as an RV or VB unit they may have worn either embroided or metal titles (In the case of the 24th (Post Office) Middlesex RV they did wear blackened metal ones - I have one in my collection) but then there was a period around 1908-09 after the creation of the London Regiments that the older form of dress was still worn possibly with the new cap badge? The above based on the assumption that the photo is of the Post Office Rifles.

The popular misconception is that "everything happend overnight" - which it did not and changes were gradual. This was recently demonstrated in another post about the peaked forage cap - in the Regulars both officers and senior NCO's were wearing it in 1904, but other ranks didn't start to see it until around 1906. The 'new' T.F. were effected in much the same way.
5 NF (Medium).jpg
In the attached photo, which I believe to be the Drummers of 5th Bn, N.F.(T.F.), taken between 1909/1913. The bulk of them are wearing the new pattern jacket, but if you look along the line you'll see a Drummer still wearing the old pattern with the 'Austrian' knot.

In a lot of cases you have to try and get hold of the "County Association Minute Books", which deal a lot with the day today running of the new Territorial Force and the units administered there-in.

[Keith Blakeman]

Thanks again Graham, I'm really glad I bought the postcard and posted it now.

I found another of the 24th Middlesex PO Rifles on the web dated slightly before the formation of the London Regiment as attached. Very similar uniforms and varying amounts of insignia being worn. I believe the OR's are wearing identical cap and collar badges with the officer in the centre having the larger version or previous pattern.



This badge may well be the collars also being worn by the single officer in the opening post.

[Graham Stewart]

Lovely photo Keith of the P.O. Rifles in 1907 and I suspect they too have woven titles. Many, many years ago I did infact own a regular pattern dark green jacket of the Rifle Brigade and the black letters 'R.B.', were woven into the shoulder strap - wish I'd kept it now

[John Mulcahy]

Graham

Your point about changes not occurring overnight is well taken.

I don’t think the point about the forage cap is quite the same though.

If I understand correctly for line Infantry, the Brodrick was officially replaced by the peaked forage cap for rank & file in 1906.

The officers ”straight up” forage cap was replaced by the universal pattern sometime between 1902 & 1904. However because W/Os and staff had officially been authorized in the 1880’s (I have the reference somewhere) to wear certain items of officer’s dress, they had received the universal pattern peaked forage cap before the rank & file were authorized a peaked forage cap to replace the Brodrick.

I certainly confused the point by not specifying rank & file. So in this case it is not that it took two extra years or so for the rank & file to receive the peaked forage cap but W/O and staff, by virtue of their privilege to wear some items of officer’s dress, got a peaked forage cap as a result of the earlier change to officers clothing regulations. The official introduction of the peaked cap for other ranks being later.

On the assumption that the officers pattern cap badge was more likely to have loops than a slider and given the order to shorten the sliders in 1906 it is fair to identify the other ranks cap badges with shortened sliders to probably after c. 1906, which was the context given for the remark about the change of cap in that year.

Uniform history is not a strong point and I’ll be happy to be corrected and learn if necessary .

John

[Graham Stewart]

John,
Possibly not a good example, but you'll probably agree that generally the concept of how things worked in the Army is over simplified by collectors, whereas in reality - supply would be far out stripped by demand. As you state due to their 'rank' both officers and *Senior NCO's more often than not take into wear a new pattern item well before the rank & file.

However even when we have an 'official' date that a certain pattern of wear for the rank & file is taken into use, even that comes under scrutiny due to dated evidence, showing that it was a slow process for an 8 Company Battalion(with nearly a 1,000 men), to fit-out.

Cpl's 2nd Bn, NF - 1907.jpg
Dated photographic evidence, is as so often hard to contradict - The Cpl's of the 2nd Bn, N.F., St.Georges Day 1907 and still not a 'new' peaked forage cap between them and yet both the Sgt Major and Battalion senior officers have the required headwear. By now and going off the 'official' date of 1906, the battalion should have all been kitted out with the new forage cap.

*If I remember correctly Senior NCO's were still kitted out at 'public expense'.

[grumpy]

Fascinating! Every picture tells a story!

The Sgt-Instructor-Musketry is NOT the best shot in the unit ....... the man next door is best SNCO shot and best company shot!

I bet a few beers changed hands at qualification time!