Trouble with Tartan

[erracht]

Here's one of the first BW badges I purchased (pre '37) - came as shown. The Grant tartan backing always intrigued me. As Grant is associated with current/recent Sigs units (32 Scottish; Gurkha Sigs), this piqued my curiosity even more to find it on BW badge. In "Badge Backings & Special Embellishments" it states that 32 (Scottish) Signal Regt was formed in 1967 from51st Highland, 52nd Lowland, and 61 (City of Edinburgh) Signal Regts. This source also states that "the use of Red Grant tartan was approved by Lord Strathspey on 32nd Regiment's formation and continues a tradition inherited from 51st Highland Division Regiment."

So, is this badge possibly from a BW signaller? Bit of a stretch there, but hoping to hear some info / opinions here, as I'm quite stumped.

Dean

[Peter Brydon]

Dean,
John Gaylor in the 3rd Edition of his book gives in Appendix J a list of tartan backings.I am sure you know this already but he lists Royal Stuart tartan for the pipers and 42nd ( Black Watch/Governmnent ) for others of the Black Watch.

Couple of thoughts- could this be a piece of spurious tartan put behind the badge to increase its saleability ?

Brian Davies in his book British Army Uniforms and Insignia of WW2 has a picture which he desribes as unusual ( page 118) of a Black Watch officer in battledress wearing Balmoral with badge and backing instead of the hackle, he makes the comment that the officer might be a member of the Home Guard which might explain his dress peculiarites.

Whilst I think it is unlikely, could your tartan backing have been worn in a Cadet or Home Guard unit ?

Peter

[Alan O]

The Lacesset (ET) spelling was pre May 1925. acording to K&K existing stocks were to be worn out and all badges made post 1925 had the IT spelling. This would make you badge even earlier than 37.

Alan

[Peter Brydon]

This thread is inspired by the 2 recent threads on the subject of tartan badge backing. The subject is not staightforward, I know a little about the Forbes tartan worn by the Liverpool Scotish for their kilts, plaids and as arm insignia and badge backing but even for one regiment there are some interesting aspects.

The use of Forbes tartan by the Liverpool Scottish might have been because their first C.O. was Christopher Forbes Bell but it has also been suggested it was the only tartan available in sufficent quantity and at a reasonable price when the unit was first raised.

The tartan was used as a badge backing on the TOS and a table in Davies- British Army Uniforms and Insignia of WW2 says the patch was cut diagonally with the white strips in a saltire. This is confirmed by Gaylor,but when worn by the Liverpool Scottish at least since 1967 the patch has had the white lines running horizontally and vertically.I have never seen a Liverpool Scottish headdress pre WW2 with the tartan backing to the badge.

A piece of tartan was worn an arm badge certainly during WW2 and after. The 1st Liverpool Scottish appear to have worn this as a horizontal bar ( post war example shown in Westlake-The Territorial Battalions picture of pipes and drums dated 1960 ) at the very top of the battledress sleeve.

The 2nd Battalion which became the 655th light Anti Aircraft Searchlight Regt R.A. in 1942 wore a Forbes tartan arm badge, but I belive this was worn vertically and not as shown in Litchfield - The Territorial Artillery 1908 -1988.The example of this badge that I have (with excellent provenance ) is of a smaller sett than that which I understand was worn by the 1st Bn.

The smaller sett was also used more recently for stable belts.

The current Liverpool Scottish Cadets wear a forbes tartan horizontal flash on their brassards above the A.C.F. title and a similar patch was worn by Liverpool Collegiate CCF .

The other thing about the Forbes tartan is that the WW1 period kilt I have shows a lot more detail in the sett compared to more modern examples,it may well be that the older kilt has faded which makes the black and green lines stand out more or perhaps the more modern material does not have the detail of the older to make it more cheaply.
P.B.

[erracht]

Peter, you're quite right - tartan insignia can be a veritable minefield when looked into. Most sources who list tartans give a general overview, failing to note differences between Battalions within the same Regiment. For example, Davis lists the Seaforths (apart from 5th Bn) as wearing the Mackenzie tartan, 1-1/2" x 3". However, the 2nd, 6th, and 7th Bns all wore different shapes/sizes (only the 2nd Bn of these listed conforming to the 1-1/2" x 3" patch). See below: top (l-r) 2nd Bn; 6th Bn bottom (l-r) 5th Bn; 7th Bn

I have been endeavouring over the past several years to acquire as much info here as possible (hard to accomplish from this side of the pond) - see my thread on tartans worn on BD in the Photographs section - and can confidently state that this topic is lot more in-depth than when first looked at! So any information here is gladly accepted and much appreciated.

Dean

[Peter Brydon]

Having looked again at the Irish Regiment of Canada web site ( which I think is excellent ) I am I right thinking that their "tartan" for their Kilts has changed slightly over the years, or again is it the fact that the tartan material fades over the years ?

Officers of the Liverpool Irish post WW2 wore green ties and I am still wondering if officers of the Irish Regiment of Canada also had distinctive ties in views of a photo which was posted some time ago ?
P.B.

[Pylon1357]

Sorry for the slow reply to the question about the Irish Regiment of Canada tartans.

Those two WWII era kilts were stored in different locations and different ways. One is very dirty (the duller looking one) the other is much cleaner, however still soiled.

The third one on my site is a modern one, purchased privately in 1995.

To the best of my knowledge and research, the Irish Regt of Canada Tartan has not changed in the slightest way. However, like with any and all textiles, the colours can vary a little bit from dye lot to dye lot.

The photo you saw posted here of an Irish Regiment of Canada Officer was a portrait studio photo, taken sometime during WWII. The Officer in question has not yet been identified, however, I am certain he is 2nd Bn, not 1st.

Myself, nor any other member of veteran's association (including three WWII Officers) that I have talked to, have ever seen a Regtl tie like the pictured. WE suspect it was a 'liberty' taken by the Officer being photoed.

Sorry I have not been answer the questions, but I, along with a couple others, are working on answering many questions we have in regards to the Regiment and it's Dress Regulations.

[erracht]

As an example of different looks to tartan, here is a photo of three Cameron of Erracht bits. Upper left is a more recent set of trews. Upper right is a pre-1961 kilt (coarser, slightly thicker wool than the trews). Lower portion is an earlier kilt (remnants of paper label) which has nice fading to it.

Dean

[Peter Brydon]

Thanks Pylon,

One final question does your tartan have a name ?

Peter

[Pylon1357]

In a word....NO.

It has been called the Ulster before but that is not correct.

I have inquired and researched this pretty much to death. There is no official name for the IrRC tartan, other than 'The Regimental Tartan'. It was conceived and created by the Regiment, and was never officially named, from what I have determined. I understand the Regiment holds the patent for this tartan, but again I have not been able to confirm this yet.

I was looking through some old court documents dated in the 1950's concerning the use of the IrRC tartan kilts by a Legion Band in Cornwall Ontario. There was quite a stir over it and the Legion Band dropped using the Tartan.

[camdig4]

Pylon,

Have you looked at the Scottish Tartans Authority website? I may be mistaken, but I think tartan # 1544, listed as the "Canadian Irish Regiment" with an alternate name of "O'Saffron" is the same as the kilts on you site.
Regards,

Dennis

[Pylon1357]

Hello Denis, many thanks for the link to that site. Unfortunately, I can not navigate through that site to save my life. no matter what I click on, I can't find the tartan. It may be due to the fact I am computer stupid, or my lack of patience as I am on dial up. My download speed is 3kb at best. Can you please post the direct link to the page I am trying to find.

According to all accounts on record, found thus far, Our tartan has no official name. If the above site lists one, I will put our Regtl secretary on it to find out whats up. Maybe this site found something the Regt has misplaced many years ago. It would be very very nice to determine this.

[camdig4]

Here's the link, supposedly there is more information on the tartan in the members area, but it is a little expensive for my budget.
www.tartansauthority.com/Web/site/cart2.asp

[Pylon1357]

Many thanks for this. I am a little patient this morning and found it. It certainly does appear to be the Irish Regiment of Canada Tartan.

I am going to send the link to our Veterans Association Secretary for further investigation.

[Peter Brydon]

There is a supposedly Liverpool Scottish full uniform currently for sale on E bay,although the sporran appears to be a genuine Liverpool Scottish one, the remaining items have nothing at all to do with the Lpool Scots.
There have been bids and I suppose the current bid is still reasonable just for the sporran but the rest of the lot appears civilian to me.
Where do vendors get their descriptions from. I did E mail the vendor but have not had a reply.

P.B.