Para Beret for opinion

[ParaDave]

Hello Everyone,

I am attaching better images, now that i have the beret in hand. I did not want to take the badge off, since it appears to have been on there for an extremely long time and verdigris has formed on the back where the lugs and pin have been against the beret lining. I hope these images portray the beret better. As always, all opinions and comments are welcome.

Many Thanks,
Dave.

[ParaDave]

The badge

[Jack8]

In my opinion your beret badge is the same pattern as the officers badge made by Firmin London which was sometimes named on the reverse.

I understand that you do not want to remove the badge but from the pictures you have provided it looks to be die struck showing details on the reverse through the striking process. This usually indicates an other ranks badge as opposed to an officers badge which has a solid reverse with no obverse detail.

It is hard to know if Firmin produced a genuine other ranks badge as very few examples have been seen. I don't have one but if you search the albums on here by typing in Parachute in the search function you can scroll down to an album by Luc. There is an example there third row across and fourth badge down which is noted by Luc as the same pattern as a Firmin officers badge. To the left there is a photograph of an unmarked example of the obverse and reverse of a Firmin officers patterbadge.

There is also a Firmin marked officers badge in the same album with pictures of the obverse and Firmin London marked reverse. Unfortunately the obverse has been highly polished therefore it's difficult to see the detail.

The reverse of the die struck other ranks badge is shown in the next photograph to the right, it is marked as a replica. This is perhaps an indication of the doubt that collectors have that Firmin made other ranks Kings Crown Parachute Regiment cap badges between 1943 and 1953 when the crown changed to Queens.

Personally I am keeping an open mind on this and have always wondered why Firmin didn't produce an other ranks badge of identical pattern as their officers badge which JR Gaunt did.

Are the lugs on your badge copper looking as I can't tell from the photograph?

[ParaDave]

Originally Posted by Jack8

In my opinion your beret badge is the same pattern as the officers badge made by Firmin London which was sometimes named on the reverse.

I understand that you do not want to remove the badge but from the pictures you have provided it looks to be die struck showing details on the reverse through the striking process. This usually indicates an other ranks badge as opposed to an officers badge which has a solid reverse with no obverse detail.

It is hard to know if Firmin produced a genuine other ranks badge as very few examples have been seen. I don't have one but if you search the albums on here by typing in Parachute in the search function you can scroll down to an album by Luc. There is an example there third row across and fourth badge down which is noted by Luc as the same pattern as a Firmin officers badge. To the left there is a photograph of an unmarked example of the obverse and reverse of a Firmin officers patterbadge.

There is also a Firmin marked officers badge in the same album with pictures of the obverse and Firmin London marked reverse. Unfortunately the obverse has been highly polished therefore it's difficult to see the detail.

The reverse of the die struck other ranks badge is shown in the next photograph to the right, it is marked as a replica. This is perhaps an indication of the doubt that collectors have that Firmin made other ranks Kings Crown Parachute Regiment cap badges between 1943 and 1953 when the crown changed to Queens.

Personally I am keeping an open mind on this and have always wondered why Firmin didn't produce an other ranks badge of identical pattern as their officers badge which JR Gaunt did.

Are the lugs on your badge copper looking as I can't tell from the photograph?

The lugs are indeed copper looking. I am by no means an expert on these badges or berets what-so-ever. I have however collected militaria for decades, and can tell that this badge, judging by the verdigris on the inside, and the 'seating' into the maroon fabric on the outside, the badge has been on this beret for a VERY VERY long time. As well, while this is not straight from a veteran, it is from a collection that is very old, had been compiled many decades ago, and to one which nothing has been added for at least that past 15-20 years. I do not wish to remove and disturb this badge, where it has been for many years, but I did make some additional images (attached) which I hope can help in seeing it a bit better.

On a side note, if all the other major manufacturers during the war made both officers and OR badges, why not Firmin? I have seen many US insignia items made by Firmin, and I am certain they probably produced other countries wartime insignia. Why would they not produce a British OR para badge?? That is almost silly to assume they did not. I have observed over many decades of 'collector created lore' simply because those postulating the 'lore' did not personally observe certain 'marked' specimens, or documents clearly stating something as proof of production. Again, if other major firms made OR badges, why not Firmin?? Just my humble opinion, for what it is worth.

[Jack8]

Thanks for the further photographs Dave, this is definitely not an officers badge from the images of the reverse and there is no need to remove it from the beret. I am still of the opinion that it is the Firmin pattern, and when I first saw it I thought it may be an officers badge due to it having a voided crown, with the lion's legs and tail also voided. To the best of my knowledge there are two other voided kings crown other ranks badges of a different pattern from unknown makers.

The badge does look to be of decent quality and to have come from the Firmin die and it does seem illogical that Firmin would not have produced an other ranks badge and of the same pattern as the officers version. I currently have three officers badges in my collection and have been looking unsuccessfully for an example of this badge for sale on ebay and with dealers for a number of years and would buy one if I saw it.

I appreciate that you say it looks to have been on there a long time and this may well be the case. Given all the positive comments it seems that you have a rare genuine WW2 beret with a badge that appears to have always been there. I'm sure you realise that If it had been an officers badge it would have significantly increased the value of this already valuable beret and possibly highlighting this was my original intention.

Jack.

[Irv]

All looks good
Great find Dave. Anything left of the inspection stamp?
Regards
Irv

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by ParaDave

I did not want to take the badge off, since it appears to have been on there for an extremely long time and verdigris has formed on the back where the lugs and pin have been against the beret lining.

That appears to be active verdigris which given time will only spread further corroding the loops and then the badge itself.

I do not collect berets or cloth of any kind so have no experience of the effects of verdigris residue getting into period wool but I would bet it does not do it any good.

Personally I would stabilise the verdigris to prevent its advance and damage to the badge or beret.

I’d suggest WD40 on a cotton bud and lightning dabbing it on the affected metal, you don’t want it dripping. This should also have the effect of lubricating and loosening the split pin so it can be removed more easily.

Your decision of course.