Interesting photo - Naval Officers(?)

[manchesters]

Well done that man.

100% perfect.

It is definately that badge.

regards

[RCN]

You have it Pete ,THANKS! Never seen that RIM badge before.

Bryan

[Guzzman]

Just to date the photo slightly more accurately - the Indian Government Service Ensign was used as the Naval Jack for the Royal Indian Marine and, subsequently, the Royal Indian Navy between 1928 and 1947. This would date the photo as being between 1928 and 1934.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Finally (before I become completely boring on the subject!), I have found some illustrations of Royal Indian Marine badges and insignia from my photo archive. I hope they are of interest.

i). An example of the RIM cap badge, 1901 pattern.

ii). Another example of the cap badge.

iii). RIM uniform of 1902. The RNR-type rank lacing was worn by all officers in the RIM.

iv). Shoulder strap of a Commander RIM (C.1909). Note the RNR-type rank lacing and the distinctive RIM button. The same device was used on the belt plate.

v). An example of the RIM belt plate. This example dates from 1894 and has the large Victorian Crown used by many colonial navies.

vi). RIM epaulette.

vii). RIM epaulette device.

I would love to say that I own some of these badges but unfortunately not. I did once have some RIM buttons which I swapped for something else. Tragically, about 25 years ago I was offered the full dress uniform of a Midshipman RIM (FREE!) but I turned it down. My only excuse is that I was a fairly new collector then and didn't realise the significance of what I was doing! Never seen another one of course ...

Pete

[RCN]

A real learning experience for me anyway Pete, as I know next to nothing about the RIM & their insignia - Thanks for posting!

I note in the Commander lace example - the rows of lace for the RIM seem very ''tight' to me - ie: the intertwined lace being very tightly woven together, more so than the lace for the RNR Officers.

Bryan

[Alex Rice]

Fantastic. Thanks Guzzman for all the info.
Cheers,
Alex

[Insignia]

I have to say what an interesting photo and interesting thread, right from the question through the guessing and speculation to the definitive answer with supporting evidence. Fascinating stuff indeed.

Best wishes and thanks

[pinfrin]

v). An example of the RIM belt plate. This example dates from 1894 and has the large
Victorian Crown used by many colonial navies.

Hello Guzzman,

I have a RIM belt badge as like shown by you. Got it last month.*

Q 1. Request any info on why 1894 specifically please ?

Q 2. Pre 1858 (presumably from 01 May 1830) the Lion rampant gardant
with a crown in its forepaws (irreverently known in the service as " the
monkey and coconut ") was used by the old IN.
Would you have an image of this worn as belt and cap badge please ?

The irradiated Star of India taken into use by HMIN from 1858. **

Q 3. Did the Bombay Marine ( successors to the HMIN ) also use
this star also from 1863 to 1877 ?

Q 4. What insignia were their successors, the HMIM (1877 - 1892) wearing ?.

(It seems that the RIN continued to use the RIM buttons to 1950
although they shifted to using the RN pattern belt badge from 1934.
( Please also see Cdr Wylie's insignia on sale on eBay ) Link:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Circa-1930...AAAOSwy4hUTNaZ

**Cdr Hastings book (The RIN 1612 - 1950) has a chapter on Uniforms.
* ( am interested in the RIN and + / - because of an old connection )

[Guzzman]

Hello Pinfrin

I'll try my best to answer your questions for you! I'll have to check my info and also see if I can find the illustrations you enquired about. I'm sure I have some filed away somewhere.

I envy you finding such a rare belt plate!

I'll get back to you soon.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Hi Pinfrin

Excuse the delay in getting back to you but had some serious World Cup Rugby to watch and a child's Halloween Party to deal with!

My image archive is extensive but needs some reorganising - especially where it concerns 'colonial' navies but I have had some success, so I'm compiling answers to your question (where possible!) but there is one I can answer straight away.

You asked why 1894?

Although the Royal Indian Marine was formed in 1892, official patterns for uniform and insignia weren't agreed upon and authorised until 1894 - hence 1894 pattern. Presumably they continued to wear their original uniforms and insignia until then.

I originally learned this from the National Maritime Museum.

I have already found some images for you and hopefully I can finish and post them on the site for you tomorrow.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Hello Pinfrin

Well after going through hundreds of images whilst attempting to answer your questions I think it's pretty fair to say that I've had little success. As you no doubt know the amount of information on the uniforms of the 'colonial' Indian navy (under whatever name!) is minimal. I've looked through all my books and I can give you the entire naval history of India - names of senior officers, dockyard officials, names of ships, etc. - but very little definate information on uniforms.

It has been such a frustrating exercise!

I did find an image of the Lion rampant on a belt plate but when I attempted to enlarge it the image became too blurred to be of any use.

Re the cap badge. I can find no images of the Lion rampant being worn as a cap badge. Are you sure that it was being worn at this date? Was any device being worn on caps at that time? The Royal Navy only adopted a badge for caps in 1846 (a Crown) and this remained in use until 1856. The badge worn by naval officers today had its origins in the badge introduced in 1856.

Caps themselves only began to be worn by naval officers during the 1830s. Cocked hats were expensive, so officers began wearing a peaked cap at sea. The Admiralty did not approve of this practice (peaked caps were worn by 'common' working men) so they banned their use ashore. Is it not feasible that peaked caps were worn in India without badges at this time?

Anyway, despite having unable to answer any of your other questions I have found some images of insignia which I hope you will find of interest. I will put them up in batches for you.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Before going any further I should make reference to an excellent history of the Indian Navy published in 1877:-

History of the Indian Navy (1613-1863) by Charles Rathbone Low. Lieutenant (late Indian Navy). Published in two volumes by Richard Bentley and Son, 1877.

Both volumes are available to read on the internet.

In his book Low relates that in July 1828 the Bombay Marine adopted a new button and belt clasp.

"The button to be raised gilt, one inch in diameter, inducted with a round rim, within the rim an anchor and a cable, above the anchor a lion rampant supporting the crown."

"Clasp pain square, gilt with a circle wreath, within the wreath the anchor and cable, with the lion above, of silver."

Now some examples:

Image a: Indian Navy

Image b: Small E.I.C. button (pre-1828?) and Indian Navy buttons.

Image c: Indian Navy.

Image d: H.E.I.C. button.

Image e: Indian Navy epaulettes worn by Commodore Robert Oliver. 1828 pattern but manufactured in 1837.

Image f: close-up of above epaulette.

[Guzzman]

Image g: Commodores cocked hat, Indian Navy. 1856 Pattern.

Image h: Commodores full dress coat, Indian Navy. 1856 Pattern.

Image i: Commodores epaulette, Indian Navy. 1856 Pattern.

[Guzzman]

Image j: Buttons on waistcoat, c. 1828.

Image k: Button - possibly an early variant of the 1828 button.

Image l: Full dress coat of Lieutenant, Indian Navy. 1828 Pattern. Made c. 1841.

[Guzzman]

Image m: Commanders cocked hat, R.I.M., 1894 Pattern.

Image n: Commodore's cocked hat, Indian Navy, 1843 Pattern.

Image o: Buttons, Indian Navy.

Image p: Buttons, variant, Indian Navy.

Image q: Buttons, Indian Navy.