Button IDs Please

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

Hoping some of you may be able to help me confirm or positively the IDs of the following buttons that have been in my unknowns box for a while.

1. Royal Regt of Artillery (QVC) Brass – 27.3mm – Backmark = FIRMIN & SONS LD . LONDON. (Loop removed and brooch pin fitted – broken)
- Possible Royal Regt. Of Artillery Mess Waiters Button?
- POSTIVE ID = Royal Artillery Mess Waiters' button

2. Unknown. (KC) White Metal/Nickel – 24.7mm – Backmark = J.HAMMOND & Co NEWCASTLE . STAFFS
- Unknown??
- POSTIVE ID = 15th battalion The London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles) - O/R's , pre 1921 (but usually have London backmarks)


3. Unknown. (QVC) Gilt – 16mm – Backmark = (None)
[Script letters could read “RER” – with the last “R” reversed.]
- POSTIVE ID = Royal Eastbourne Golf Club



4. Unknown. Brass – 25mm – Backmark = C.J.WEBB & Co Ltd . LONDON
- Looks like Scots Guards button but without a Crown. (Was it an early Royal Scots button?)
- POSTIVE ID = South Africa, Cape Town Highlanders, 1885 onwards

5. Unknown. Brass – 23mm - – Backmark = (None) (Loop missing & possibly dug)
- Unknown??

6. Unknown. Gilt Mounted – 19.8mm – Backmark = JENNENS & Co . LONDON. [Crowned Lion holding a scroll over the Gothic Script letters “HCC”???]
- POSTIVE ID = East India College – Haileybury Cadet College (circa 1806-1856) see post 22.

I have a feeling I am going to kick myself when some of the ID's come in as I should probably know some of them.

Many thanks for looking.

Ian

FYI - If these items do not fit in with my areas of collecting then I may well put them on eBay at some point in the future.

[Phil2M]

Bottom row first, looks like Scots Guards.

[4966Ian]

Hi Phil,

Re : Nos 4.

Yes, that was my first thought as well, until I realised that it didn't have a Crown (either QVC or KC), which as far as I know the Scots Guards buttons did.
Unless of course there was a earlier period when this style of button was introduced without a QVC crown.

Very strange - I suppose it could also be from the Royal Scots or the Royal Scots Fusiliers.

I will await the experts. . .

[btns]

4. I had it on various trays in the past, but now it sits in ZA as Cape Town Highlanders, 1885 onwards

[Milmed]

The button under discussion is Cape Town Highlanders

[4966Ian]

Thanks btns and Milmed for the positive ID on Nos. 4.
Happy as I would never have got that one.
1 down, 5 to go.

Cheers

Ian

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

Button 1 I have as Royal Artillery Mess Waiters' button, this is tentatively identified as such in Norman Litchfield's booklet on Royal Artillery Buttons.

Button 2 is 15th battalion The London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles) - identified as such on this Forum a little while back.

Still working on the other unidentified ones!

Regards
Roger

[4966Ian]

Hi Roger,

Many thanks for those IDs. I have updated the original post with the details of the positive IDs.

Please say, if you need better pictures of the remaining buttons.

Cheers

Ian

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

I can't really add much to what has already been said but, to summarise:

1) These used to be thought of as RA cloak clasp buttons as they have been known to turn up with a pair linked by a chain. The late Norman Litchfield was originally of this opinion but subsequently thought they were more likely to be RA Mess Waiters buttons and I think that is probably what they are.

2) 15/London Regt (Civil Service Rifles) - O/R's , pre 1921 (but usually have London backmarks)

3) Probably Mess Waiters or Mufti button but not sure which regt.

4) CapeTown Highlanders (SA) - O/R's.

5) Seen one before that was also un-identified, but was believed to have a RN connection. Possibly just a generic button with various uses?

6) Very unusual. At first glance I thought it was something to do with the HEIC but I don't think it is. Haven't got a clue to be honest!

David

[spreadeagle]

Originally Posted by 4966Ian

Hi folks,

Hoping some of you may be able to help me confirm or positively the IDs of the following buttons that have been in my unknowns box for a while.

1. Royal Regt of Artillery (QVC) Brass – 27.3mm – Backmark = FIRMIN & SONS LD . LONDON. (Loop removed and brooch pin fitted – broken)
- Possible Royal Regt. Of Artillery Mess Waiters Button?
- POSTIVE ID = Royal Artillery Mess Waiters' button

2. Unknown. (KC) White Metal/Nickel – 24.7mm – Backmark = J.HAMMOND & Co NEWCASTLE . STAFFS
- Unknown??
- POSTIVE ID = 15th battalion The London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles)


3. Unknown. (QVC) Gilt – 16mm – Backmark = (None)
[Script letters could read “RER” – with the last “R” reversed.]
- Possible Royal Engineers Officer’s Mess Dress?



4. Unknown. Brass – 25mm – Backmark = C.J.WEBB & Co Ltd . LONDON
- Looks like Scots Guards button but without a Crown. (Was it an early Royal Scots button?)
- POSTIVE ID = South Africa, Cape Town Highlanders, 1885 onwards

5. Unknown. Brass – 23mm - – Backmark = (None) (Loop missing & possibly dug)
- Unknown??

6. Unknown. Gilt Mounted – 19.8mm – Backmark = JENNENS & Co . LONDON. [Crowned Lion holding a scroll over the Gothic Script letters “KCC”???]
- Unknown?????

I have a feeling I am going to kick myself when some of the ID's come in as I should probably know some of them.

Many thanks for looking.

Ian

FYI - If these items do not fit in with my areas of collecting then I may well put them on eBay at some point in the future.

Here's a GM or possibly bronzed version of N02.
I haven't been able to identify until now,and will be pleased if it is a 15th London button,but I've never seen another one recorded as such,and until now have had it down as a Police button?
Cheers.
Al

[btns]

My No. 2 has "Reynolds & Co, London". It is 17 mm, white metal.

[davidwyke]

Hi Al

These buttons don't appear in any reference books (at least I don't think they do) and they cause a lot of confusion, as do the units cap badges.

It's generally accepted in button collecting circles that they were worn by the 15th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Prince Of Wales's Own Civil Service Rifles) from 1908 - 1921.

The predecessor to the above was the 12th Middlesex (Civil Service) RVC. They wore a similar button but with the royal arms in the centre. These are recorded in silver and blackened metal.

The 15/London Regt buttons come in various finishes (as do many of the London Regt buttons), the commonest in my experience is blackened brass for O/R's, which you would expect for a Rifle Regt. Perhaps your button could have originally been blackened?

Just as a matter of interest, which Police force did you think your button came from? The reason I ask is that London Regt buttons usually have London backmarks. It's unusual that both yours and Ian's have Staffs backmarks.

David

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by spreadeagle

Here's a GM or possibly bronzed version of N02.
I haven't been able to identify until now,and will be pleased if it is a 15th London button,but I've never seen another one recorded as such,and until now have had it down as a Police button?
Cheers.
Al

Hello Al

I must admit that I always had this button down as a police button but could never find it in either of Howard Ripley's books on police buttons. It was on this Forum some time ago that it was originally identified as a 15th London button and this was confirmed here more recently.

I will see if I can track down the original posts.

Regards
Roger

[Cribyn]

Unknown button WM KC POW plumes (http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=26300)

Hello again

Here is the original post which identified the 15th London buttons. As yet I can't find the subsequent posts.

Roger

[spreadeagle]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Unknown button WM KC POW plumes (http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=26300)

Hello again

Here is the original post which identified the 15th London buttons. As yet I can't find the subsequent posts.

Roger

Hello Roger & David,
Thanks for the info on the POW button,it's much appreciated.
This one is a bit of a puzzler,as until now I always assumed The 15th London wore a generic Rifle Brigade pattern button.
I can't find any trace of a black finish on mine,but it does have remains of bronzing within the circlet,which would more than likely exclude the possibility of it being a Police item.
Cheers.
Al