Bristol Constabulary WR

[GTB]

Police insignia is not my forte, although I have a substantial collection hidden away in various drawers & other storage, awaiting that elusive day when I will seriously set about displaying.

The attached has a mounted centrepiece which looks to be chromed brass, and has separate letters 'WR'. Would these signify War Reserve?

My other question is: did this Force originally wear brass headdress insignia, prior to the introduction of chroming?

Thanks in advance for comments

GTB

[manchesters]

GTB,

I believe you are correct with War Reserve.

Before this the badges were white metal.

Brass was only worn by some Police Bands and the "Fire Police".

regards

[davidwyke]

Hi GTB

I'm speaking from memory here so apologies if I get it wrong. I think "WR" on your Bristol Cons badge is "War Reserve" (WW2 I believe). I've seen one before but I can't remember if it's a cap badge or small helmet plate; probably the former as I'm not sure if "War Reserves" would have worn helmets.

I'm not sure about Reserves or Specials but I think early regular Bristol Constabulary helmet plates were both blackened and white metal and later both blackened and chrome. Cap badges were probably white metal and then chrome. I doubt if they ever wore brass badges.

Bristol Cons HP's were also quite unusual in that they usually had the Officers Divisional letter & number in the centre - eg C / 21, from Victorian times through to at least the 1960's, I think.

David

[GTB]

Thanks Simon & David.

David, re size of badge I am displaying together with a 'normal' size helmet plate (QC) for comparison purposes.
I can confirm that the underlying metal of the oval centrepiece is brass.
GTB

[altcar73]

Your badge is one which was worn on caps. War Reserves in Bristol, unlike some forces, did not wear helmets.

Dave.

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by manchesters

GTB,



Brass was only worn by some Police Bands and the "Fire Police".

regards

Except the Wakefield City Police who wore brass/gilt badges, buttons and numerals into the 1930's. They briefly wore white metal before finally changing to chrome circa. 1937.

Dave.

[GTB]

I gather that War Reserve Constabulary collectables would be more at home alongside those of organisations such as ARP, CD, HG, etc!! Or would I be straying here?
GTB

[davidwyke]

I think I'm right here (and if I'm wrong Dave will no doubt put me right!) but I think War Reserve Constables were volunteer officers who were attested as Special Constables but who worked full time rather than part time as did Specials. They filled a gap caused by regular officers leaving to join the armed forces. I'm sure they would have performed regular police duties along with civil defense type duties. By no means all forces had them incidentally, the Met in London probably had the most as you would expect. I think the post was abolished in the late 1940's when sufficient numbers of regular officers had returned from military service.

David

[davidwyke]

GTB - I know I'm hijacking your thread here but a quick question for Dave if I may?

Dave - Wakefield City Police, specifically buttons. As you say, they changed from white metal to chrome c.1937. The WM buttons were the shield & force title pattern. When they changed to chrome they briefly adopted a chrome version of this same pattern before changing to the standard KC chrome "Home Office" pattern. Do you have a date for the change from the chrome "force" pattern to the chrome "home office" pattern. It was probably 1938/1939 at the latest.

David

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

I think I'm right here (and if I'm wrong Dave will no doubt put me right!) but I think War Reserve Constables were volunteer officers who were attested as Special Constables but who worked full time rather than part time as did Specials. They filled a gap caused by regular officers leaving to join the armed forces. I'm sure they would have performed regular police duties along with civil defense type duties. By no means all forces had them incidentally, the Met in London probably had the most as you would expect. I think the post was abolished in the late 1940's when sufficient numbers of regular officers had returned from military service.

David

David,

Yes, you've more or less got it right. I'm not sure about the legislation without doing some research but they certainly had full police powers. I have a feeling that there was a specific Act which authorised their attestation as War Reserve Constables as opposed to SC's. I think that all forces in England and Wales appointed them. There were a great many forces in those days that had very small establishments/strengths and in some cases as many as two thirds of the regular force were called up and, as you say, their place was taken by war reserves. Liverpool City Police for example recalled for duty all their fit retired regular officers as War Reserves and they together with the SC's performed
outstandingly throughout that period. Interestingly, one or two forces Hampshire being one, issued the WR's with helmets. However, the norm was usually a flat cap.

Dave.

[davidwyke]

Dave

Thanks for that. My logic in assuming that not all forces appointed them was that you don't find "War Reserve" insignia from many forces (or at least I don't) so presumably many forces issued war reserves with regular insignia?

David

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

GTB - I know I'm hijacking your thread here but a quick question for Dave if I may?

Dave - Wakefield City Police, specifically buttons. As you say, they were (shield with force title pattern) in brass for many years. Then they changed to white metal and then very briefly to a chrome version of the same pattern. Soon after that they changed to the standard KC chrome "Home Office" pattern buttons. Does your c 1937 date relate to the chrome "force pattern" or the chrome "home office" pattern buttons? It's probably hard to say as the "force" pattern buttons had no sooner being issued than they were replaced.

David

David,

Having looked at my grouping for Wakefield Police, their first button was white metal and featured a "country scene" showing cows and a bundle of corn plus the wording "Wakefield Constabulary". Then a "Borough Police" version in white metal with a F-d-L within a shield, then the same again in brass but with "City Police", then a white metal "City Police" and then a chrome "City Police". Then to comply with the 1935 standardisation report from the Home Office then adopted the normal "KC" button and then post 1953 the QC version. The dates are (as you will appreciate) a bit hit and miss. But I've had the advantage of "grilling" several years ago, a very old retired Wakefield City policeman who fortunately had an interest in such things when he was serving and who fortunately was able to give me an idea of the chronology of the insignia etc. I'm attaching a photo of the whole group. The buttons may not be too distinct but if you would like close ups just shout and I'll oblige. 1937 was I understand the approx. year of change for the chrome F-d-L version.

Dave.

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Dave

Thanks for that. My logic in assuming that not all forces appointed them was that you don't find "War Reserve" insignia from many forces (or at least I don't) so presumably many forces issued war reserves with regular insignia?

David

David,

Yes, you are spot on. I think only about half a dozen forces issued specific cap badges for WR's. Strangely, despite the large numbers in London, the Met. issued them with the regulars cap badge. That said, quite a few issued a small WR mufti badge to them. There is apparently a WR mufti lapel badge for Wakefield but alas I've yet to find one!

Dave.

[davidwyke]

What a fantastic Wakefield City display!!! (this face should really be green!!)

David

(That's the first time I've seen an actual example of the first issue "pastoral scene" button, they are extremely rare)

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by altcar73

David,

Having looked at my grouping for Wakefield Police, their first button was white metal and featured a "country scene" showing cows and a bundle of corn plus the wording "Wakefield Constabulary". Then a "Borough Police" version in white metal with a F-d-L within a shield, then the same again in brass but with "City Police", then a white metal "City Police" and then a chrome "City Police". Then to comply with the 1935 standardisation report from the Home Office then adopted the normal "KC" button and then post 1953 the QC version. The dates are (as you will appreciate) a bit hit and miss. But I've had the advantage of "grilling" several years ago, a very old retired Wakefield City policeman who fortunately had an interest in such things when he was serving and who fortunately was able to give me an idea of the chronology of the insignia etc. I'm attaching a photo of the whole group. The buttons may not be too distinct but if you would like close ups just shout and I'll oblige. 1937 was I understand the approx. year of change for the chrome F-d-L version.

Dave.

Dave,

I have a pair of WM (not chrome) collar badges of those odd fleur de lys amongst my 4th VB Manchester Regiment badges.
I always wondered why they were such a funny shape. Clearly they are now not required by me.

If you are interested in having them email me, you have my address.

regards