Auxiliary RIC "cadets"

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

There is an RIC Auxiliary hat in the Limerick Museum collection. It is dark RIC green with a red lozenge on the front bearing a harp-and-crown badge. It has linen streamers and a light green wool bob on the top. I do not think any of the auxiliaries wore black tunics or Tam o'Shanters.

[PeterMc]

Thanks for posting the scans Steve. Could you pm me the full picture or let me know where it exists; don't think I've seen it before (or maybe never noticed the badge!). Christmas card attached; Q Co. performed docks and harbour security mostly around Dublin and Cork. Peter

[dragonz18]

Peter,
the best I can do ,at present,is to give details of a book that this appears in.
It is a large ,clear pic.
"The illustrated life of Michael Collins" by Colm Conolly. Robert Reinhart publishers, Bolder Colorado.
Hope this helps.
If not ,try John Mulcahy, a site member here. He had a copy of this pic.
Cheers !
Steve

[Laz]

First of all hello (my first post)
This is a subject I have been doing a bit of research on lately, the ADRIC from I understand wore standard British army officer uniform with a Tam O'Shanter (as shown on that Ken Loach film, The wind that shakes the Barley) although I have read books that state the 'Auxies' (as well as the Black and Tans) ended up wearing a full RIC uniform.
The ADRIC were full RIC officers, I have seen proof of this on a website about the CWGC (Commonwealth War Graves Commission) in which an ADRIC man killed in the Kilmichael Ambush was refused a war grave because "He was only a policeman", incidentally the RUC/PSNI are as equally dismissive.
As mentioned there are a lot of photographs floating around of the ADRIC, some in British army uniform others RIC.
The first two are ADRIC in Army Uniform (The first I think is one of the pictures of the parade mentioned before), The last two are ADRIC in what appears to be RIC uniform, There is also a picture of ADRIC and civilians mingling on the day of the ceasefire in which the ADRIC is in full RIC uniform.

These aren't my pictures, but thanks to who ever put them in general use for us to discuss.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Hello Laz,

I think that two of the Kilmichael victims were merely RIC cadets, who had not been in the army and had never held a commission. If I remember correctly, the memorial plaque in Macroom parish church lists the two non-officers as "cadets", whereas the military ranks of the ex-officers are shown, together with their WWI decorations.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

Hello Laz,

I think that two of the Kilmichael victims were merely RIC cadets, who had not been in the army and had never held a commission. If I remember correctly, the memorial plaque in Macroom parish church lists the two non-officers as "cadets", whereas the military ranks of the ex-officers are shown, together with their WWI decorations.

I didn't know that, thanks, I did know that the ADRIC attracted a few 'adventurers' as well as ex-soldiers.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Laz,

As you will know, the “Auxies” were primarily ex-officers, many of whom had been decorated for bravery in WWI. However, as time went on, a few non-soldiers were recruited, and, if killed, they would not have been buried in a war graves. All of the RIC cadets who died in “The Troubles” are on the police roll of honour, which lists them all as cadets, rather than soldiers.

The RUC/PSNI web site treats the Black & Tan campaign in a sober and factual manner, but the museum itself would presumably take the view that as the “Tans” did not operate in the North of Ireland (apart from the marine branch), they are not really part of the RUC story.

[PeterMc]

As a relative newcomer to this site I don't want to divert from the subject of 'Badges' too far but can I offer some clarifications on a subject I have been following for many years:

1. Don't get hung up on what constituted a 'uniform' to the Auxiliaries. As I've mentioned earlier, there was considerable and often deliberate variation in this, within an overall theme. There was no such thing as a 'standard' Brit or RIC uniform worn, there were all bastardisations of the same.

2. Similarly it was not 'full RIC uniform' - an officers jacket as opposed to an other ranks jacket, and trousers were about the extent of it; often with the leather snake-buckle belt. This was a further bastardisation of 'officer' uniform (officers never wore the leather belt, much less twin Webleys or bandoliers).

3. The ADRIC were not full RIC officers. They were an auxiliary force to the police, hence the deliberate variation in uniform. The command and control of this Auxiliary Division was the weakness in security force policy until early 1921 when a joint command of military operations was properly implemented.

4. The term 'cadet' was the RIC terminology for an officer cadet (an officer in training, as opposed to a constable recruit in training). The RIC, like the army, was composed of officers and O/R's. All of the Kilmichael men were ex-Military; one (Arthur Poole late Royal West Kents and RAF) was an ex-soldier driver with the rank of Temporay Constable. Apart from Poole, all the other Kilmichael men were ex-officer class and Temporary Cadets.

5. As far as I know all the Auxiliaries were ex-military, but I keep an open mind. If you give me some names of those who were not I'd be grateful for the information.

6. The Auxiliaries did operate in the North, as an example one Company was based in Monaghan (Ulster). As the Treaty came into play and the threat of violence then shifted to the 6 Counties there were re-deployments but I don't have the exact details of who went where after this time.

7. The CWGC argument is an interesting and perennial one. Capt Philip Graham (of the Kilmichael ambush) is commemorated on CWGC; as are several other ex-military serving as members of the RIC regular force or holding RIC officer rank. It is a very grey area.

I hope this helps; and once again apologies to the forum for straying away from badges.
Peter

[Laz]

Thanks for that, I have tried looking for the site about the ADRIC man that was killed in the Kilmichael ambush and ignored and I can't find it anymore so maybe he has eventually been recognised.
This is an interesting subject once you peel back the post incident slant put on it by some.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Good evening Peter, and thank you for your information.

I read somewhere that a tiny minority of RIC cadets were not ex soldiers, but cannot now find the source. This may of course be a result of confusion between what might constitute a "soldier" (as opposed to, shall we say, an airman) but, in any case, the number of such "non-soldiers" would have been negligible. In referring to the Kilmichael ambush victims and the Macroom memorial I should not have mentioned the "non-soldiers" - I really meant the one or two individuals who were not ex-officers. According to The Times, all of the dead were afforded full military funerals, thereby underling the indeterminate status of the ADRIC.

I have never myself regarded the RIC Auxiliaries as policemen - if they were, they must have been like no policeman one would ever want to meet on a dark night!

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

I have never myself regarded the RIC Auxiliaries as policemen - if they were, they must have been like no policeman one would ever want to meet on a dark night!

They fought the IRA using their tactics, that was where it was wrong, people who are meant to be the law should never do that, although even IRA men saw the ADRIC as "Almost superhuman fighters".

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Laz,

The man who was wounded at Kilmichael and crawled into a ditch to hide was Cecil Guthrie, late of the RAF. He was aged 28, and came from 'Coombes', Buckfastleigh, Devon. He was discovered by the IRA and shot two days later. I think he is on the Macroom memorial, and he is also listed on the National Police Roll of Honour web site (under the RIC section). As a matter of interest, the aforementioend web site has good colour pictures of all of the main police badges.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Stanley_C_Jenkins

Laz,

The man who was wounded at Kilmichael and crawled into a ditch to hide was Cecil Guthrie, late of the RAF. He was aged 28, and came from 'Coombes', Buckfastleigh, Devon. He was discovered by the IRA and shot two days later. I think he is on the Macroom memorial, and he is also listed on the National Police Roll of Honour web site (under the RIC section). As a matter of interest, the aforementioend web site has good colour pictures of all of the main police badges.

Thanks, I will go have a look

[Laz]

Sorry to go further off topic but, I have found the website I was talking about!, (his name is on the National Police memorial role of honour) James C. Gleave.

http://www.kentfallen.com/Forgotten%20Fallen.html

It also goes into great detail about Kilmichael.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

An interesting an useful site, but difficult to use.

I tried searching for "Wainwright", "Gleare", Taylor etc but they do not immediately turn up. When they did finally appear I was surprised (in this politically correct age) that the creators of the site did not mince their words - it is not often we hear terrorists described as "murderers" and "murderous thugs".

I wonder if any ADRIC badges are ever likely to appear in The Badge Forum?