Coldstream Guards badges

[leigh kitchen]

I'd wondered about trinket boxes, cigarette cases etc but photo frames hadn't occurred to me.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

What are the sizes of these badges? If they are larger than the standard pattern of today, it might be that they date back to the old, pre-1900 pattern forage cap, whose badge was larger. These forage caps seem to have been largely forgot and yet they go back to at least 1853, when they replaced a previous, peaked forage cap, with a similar large badge, that had been worn since at least 1830. An almost identical badge, but with screw post fixing was fitted to the cartouche.

I see what you mean Toby. Mine is the same size as the large Officer type cap star. What puzzles me is, (the ones that i have seen on bed plates of this type) why are they of Officer type and size for OR's and not the OR's type. The more squarer type ?
Andy

[Frank Kelley]

Does anyone know if the valise was worn after 1939?

[leigh kitchen]

No ref. too hand, but I believe that it wasn't.
There is a St Eds Crown WG "valise plate" in use but it's worn in Glory Order on the transponder pack (one went for £45 a few months ago on eBay).
I don't know if the other Foot Guards regiments wear similar badges.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I see what you mean Toby. Mine is the same size as the large Officer type cap star. What puzzles me is, (the ones that i have seen on bed plates of this type) why are they of Officer type and size for OR's and not the OR's type. The more squarer type ?
Andy

Andy, there is some strong circumstantial evidence that they might well be a size of badge that was produced from a single die for at least two purposes, namely as a cartouche badge (not valise, whose badge was painted on at first) and as a forage cap badge for both, the 1830s-40s, peaked cap (worn by all ORs) and its replacement cap without peak worn tipped to the side of the head with chinstrap down that was adopted in 1853 (battalion staff retained the peaked cap but with gold lace band).

After recent months spent examining contemporary images I strongly believe that in terms of form and function the cartouche badge, especially for Foot Guards, was the true conception/origin of the undress/forage cap badge as we know it today. Incredibly the 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards cartouche badge of 1799 was identical to the forage cap badge worn today by the Coldstream and Scots Guards.

A potential third purpose was as a bed plate, but I am unsure whether that usage was just a way to use up large stocks of a dual purpose badge that had been in use for many decades, after a smaller pattern badge was introduced for the 'Brodrick styled' (it was not a true Brodrick) Guards Pattern forage cap, issued in 1900, that was worn square on the head without chinstrap, as well as a much larger valise badge that had to all intents and purposes replaced the cartouche badge as an item of Guards insignia.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

No ref. too hand, but I believe that it wasn't.
There is a St Eds Crown WG "valise plate" in use but it's worn in Glory Order on the transponder pack (one went for £45 a few months ago on eBay).
I don't know if the other Foot Guards regiments wear similar badges.

It continued to be worn, but was moved from the valise that was no longer used to the folded and boxed off greatcoat (later just cape) that was worn in the centre of the upper back (between shoulder blades). It was modified to fit on the coat/capes white securing straps. The whole thing was finally discontinued completely with the end of National Service in the early 1960s, since which time the waist belt alone has been worn in guard/review order.

[leigh kitchen]

I was refering to the valise but I was thinking of the greatcoat (I zero'd in on the valise plate rather than the order of dress). My mistake, but were the straps & folded greatcoat worn after WWII? I thought not.
WG in Guard Order c1936.
The drawing on the right shows CG wearing the pre-1936 Guard Order with folded greatcoat & rolled cape, on the left is the Order as of October 1936 with folded cape only. The cape was worn in the same fashion when the greatcoat was worn.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

I was refering to the valise but I was thinking of the greatcoat (I zero'd in on the valise plate rather than the order of dress). My mistake, but were the straps & folded greatcoat worn after WWII? I thought not.
WG in Guard Order c1936.
The drawing on the right shows CG wearing the pre-1936 Guard Order with folded greatcoat & rolled cape, on the left is the Order as of October 1936 with folded cape only. The cape was worn in the same fashion when the greatcoat was worn.

My understanding is that for Guard Order the cape alone (with valise badge) was worn after WW2, as per the left hand man in your twin rear view, until the end of National Service. I suspect that it was only in the Colder half of the year though. It was an old guardsman who told me. Adding that it was as a protection from rainfall. In those days guard included duties at Buck house, Jimmies and the Bank of England as well as Windsor Castle when Royals were in residence.

[leigh kitchen]

The cape only order version was apparently a King Edward VIII innovation.
It could well be that it did continue after WWII, I just got the idea that WWII saw it off.
Speaking as someone who never had to wear it, I think the greatcoat Guard Order was a smart order of dress.

[Frank Kelley]

I was talking about the Coldstream's Valise only, I too, am of the opinion that they were not, but, yes, you certainly encounter the tall end, wooden top with the black pack, in, for example, St James's park, on occasion, doing his thing and sporting a badge, but, nothing to do with the valise.

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

No ref. too hand, but I believe that it wasn't.
There is a St Eds Crown WG "valise plate" in use but it's worn in Glory Order on the transponder pack (one went for £45 a few months ago on eBay).
I don't know if the other Foot Guards regiments wear similar badges.

[leigh kitchen]

That'll be a faux valise presumably, I have a photo somewhere of a GG wearing a large square box on his back but rather than black it was covered in red tunic cloth, taken when the equipment was in its early days of use.

"A Guardsmen in the park" - now that used to be a n infamous headline years ago.

[Frank Kelley]

That is very interesting, was this the practice of all the regiments or just the Coldstream?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It continued to be worn, but was moved from the valise that was no longer used to the folded and boxed off greatcoat (later just cape) that was worn in the centre of the upper back (between shoulder blades). It was modified to fit on the coat/capes white securing straps. The whole thing was finally discontinued completely with the end of National Service in the early 1960s, since which time the waist belt alone has been worn in guard/review order.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

That is very interesting, was this the practice of all the regiments or just the Coldstream?

It was the practice of all the Foot Guard regiments, each of which had its own pattern of valise badge, just as they had previously with the cartouche badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

That'll be a faux valise presumably, I have a photo somewhere of a GG wearing a large square box on his back but rather than black it was covered in red tunic cloth, taken when the equipment was in its early days of use.

"A Guardsmen in the park" - now that used to be a n infamous headline years ago.

Yes, those were detection devices (box shape) intended to disrupt any signal directed explosive initiation devices. Also used for some radio sets a decade or so ago. Both were wrapped in cloth as you have described and the former at least seems to have been fitted with a valise badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

The cape only order version was apparently a King Edward VIII innovation.
It could well be that it did continue after WWII, I just got the idea that WWII saw it off.
Speaking as someone who never had to wear it, I think the greatcoat Guard Order was a smart order of dress.

I agree that greatcoat Guard Order is smart. The cape, when worn, used to give some degree of protection to white pipeclayed (blanco/soldiers friend etc), which was of a type then notorious for running and leaching in the rain.