Lancers terminology, help

[mac mcconnell]

Well being a former 17th/21st Lancer and Queens Royal Lancer from day one it was referred to as the Motto and any one calling it a cap badge is to be corrected immediately. The Regimental Motto is Death Or Glory unlike many cap badges that have the regimental motto on the badge the 17th 17TH/21ST QRL and RL skull represents the Death part in symbol not in word so together they make the Motto DEATH OR GLORY. I WILL ALWAYS CALL IT A MOTTO and correct all na Sayers OR GLORY

Best Mac

[54Bty]

And there is the "Hawk", still being worn and referred to as such.

Marc

[grenadierguardsman]

Thats it then..........its a cap badge.....
Andy

[Jelly Terror]

I'm wondering if the reason this iconic emblem is not referred to as a cap badge to this day, is because the Death's Head, with the words 'Or Glory' beneath was a remarkably ubiquitous device for the regiment and its antecedent units, being utilised on a whole number of appointments throughout its history.

Thought originally to have been worn on the left breast of the coat, it was also present at the centre of the regimental guidons, on the hind quarters of the shabraque, on the front plate of the dress cap, worn as an arm badge by WOs, and myriad other places.

I would argue that it is indelibly woven into the identity of the regiment, and has become a focal point for their esprit de corps. It never was simply just a cap badge, and therefore was perhaps not seen as, and not identified as just a cap badge by the regiment.

Just my thoughts.



Regards to all,

JT

[Rob Miller]

A very complex question, presumably to the regiment in question its a "Motto" where ever its displayed, on a wall, or a flag or a hat, anywhere in fact, to this Regiment the cap badge becomes secondary to the words/sentiment written on it.

But personally I as a non member of this proud and deserving Regiment feel as it isn't my motto to call it that is in the very least pretentious.

So to me its a cap badge.

Rob

[altcar73]

Yes, I'm afraid its a cap badge. Our friend who feels the need to correct "immediately" anyone who calls it that had better get on to the MoD "immediately" if not sooner.

Dave.

[peter monahan]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Now you're referring to what the rest of the army calls the badge of the Int. Corps resting on its laurels.

I wasn't, oddly enough, but good catch, Leigh!

[rboorman]

The 17th Light Dragoon’s (later Lancers) we’re raised in 1759 on instruction of the King by Col. John Hale. He had been with General Wolfe at the siege of Quebec where Wolfe was killed. Hale used the death head & crossed bones with the banner “Or Glory” as a perpetual memorial to Wolfe. As such it was the a physical representation of the Regimental Motto, “Death Or Glory” and was called a Motto. Still worth today by the Royal Lancers.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by rboorman

The 17th Light Dragoon’s (later Lancers) we’re raised in 1759 on instruction of the King by Col. John Hale. He had been with General Wolfe at the siege of Quebec where Wolfe was killed. Hale used the death head & crossed bones with the banner “Or Glory” as a perpetual memorial to Wolfe. As such it was the a physical representation of the Regimental Motto, “Death Or Glory” and was called a Motto. Still worth today by the Royal Lancers.

Thanks for that. It's a fascinating topic, as with so many of these historical regimental origins, customs, traditions, idiosyncrasies etc.

This from 'The Records and Badges of Every Regiment and Corps in the British Army' by Henry Manners Chichester and George Burges-Short:

'... raised in Hertfordshire, under a Warrant dated 17th November, 1759, by Lieutenant-Colonel Hale, 47th Regiment, who brought home the dispatches announcing the capture of Quebec, and the death of Wolfe in the moment of victory. The uniform was scarlet, faced with white like the 47th, but with white and black mixed lace, the "mourning paper" lace, like the "Death or Glory" badge - which was first embroidered on the left breast of the coat - being adopted to commemorate the hero's fall.

JT

[mac mcconnell]

With so many traditions fading fast I will carry on to correct those who call the Motto a cap Badge. I have no need to contact the MOD. When people ask why I am only to pleased to explain my former Regiments fantastic history and as to why we wear the Motto.
For those that poke fun we can only feel sorry for them that you never had the chance to wear the Mottto and can only try to enlighten those that have an ignorance to such proud military traditions...........OR GLORY.

Best Mac

[rboorman]

Just as an added footnote.

John Hale actually raised the 18th Light Dragoons but when the original 17th failed to develop the army command at Horse Guards instructed that all subsequent regiments were to “close rank” and thus Hale commanded the renumbered 17th. The rest they say is history!

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

With so many traditions fading fast I will carry on to correct those who call the Motto a cap Badge. I have no need to contact the MOD. When people ask why I am only to pleased to explain my former Regiments fantastic history and as to why we wear the Motto.
For those that poke fun we can only feel sorry for them that you never had the chance to wear the Mottto and can only try to enlighten those that have an ignorance to such proud military traditions...........OR GLORY.

Best Mac

Take a "like", even though you weren't a Fusilier.

[Mike H]

Interesting that the raising was in Hertfordshire. Does anybody know how long it was connected to the above county. I always thought the 17th/21st were an East Midland regiment.

[Lancer 17]

Ive just found this thread by accident and must join the discussion.

As a non member but as a descendant of a survivor of that famous charge and as a friend of the Regiment and specialist collector to every thing to do with the 17th Lancers, I must defend the use of the term Motto as noted above relates to Col Hale and Gen Woolfe and it full meaning being Death or Glory.
The word Motto is always spelt with a capitol M, however to confuse matters for the non believers an Arm Motto is referred to as a Chadd and that's with a capitol C and a double dd. Sadly the Chadd is no longer worn by the Royal Lancers. This was introduced in 1864 and used continuously up to the resent amalgamation in 2015.

Regards

Phil.

OR GLORY.

[Hoot]

I believe it's a very popular embellishment among the Hell's Angels mob. I've no doubt they refer to it as a badge as well. Somehow I don't think the Luton Chapter would take too kindly to being lectured about it!!.