"Existing supplies to be exhausted before new issued"

[Bill A]

The Canadian policy that "existing supplies (of insignia) to be exhausted before new badges issued" is repeatedly stated in documentation. Many photos show both old and new issue badges in wear at the same time. A mess for dress and deportment in the unit. And, evidence shows the tudor crown badges in wear long after the ascension of Queen Elizabeth II to the throne. The question then becomes at what point does the dress of the unit supercede the directive to use up old badges?

[Phillip Herring]

As an example, I have seen CAF chaplains wearing the old Chaplain Branch cap badges even though the new Christian/Jewish/Muslim badges are available.

Phil

[Mike_2817]

This is the same as the British Forces Policy.

In regard to change to 'Imperial Crowns' (Tudor Crown) evidence of the being worn into the early 60's exists

Where an amalgamation or change of badge design other than crown in some cases it can be immediate.

In some cases of uniform change it's normaly by unit.

[WJ Miller]

Some units, like the Elgins must have had a massive pile of KC badges left over from the 1940's/50's!

Here is a photo dated 1976 from the Elgin-County Archives (and from the dress and haircuts i have no reason to doubt the date). Only ONE QC cap badge in evidence (officer at extreme left), while there is a mix of KC cap badges and QC collars!?

Further photos in their Archives show that by circa 1980 only QC badges are being worn (post Silver jubilee!). It would be interesting to know what kind of quantities had been ordered to have a 30+ year surplus! Even now a KC Elgin badge is one of the more common items on the collector's market.

[shootemup]

I've also seen older style badges being worn for other reasons: "It was my dad's/granpa's" and in some cases, to show seniority "I've been in since x and this was the badge I was issued then". I have no issue with it personally, as long as the badge is essentially the same as the current badge but with very minor differences (ie: KC vs. QC, without the "royal" designation or with, etc, different batch with better metal or finish).

[sarge5020]

A couple of things;
In 2004 while on my senior leaders course, a fellow from an artillery unit was wearing a very nice Tudor crown cap badge so I think that many guys like to track down the older badges and wear them (until the RSM either sends them to QM for the proper badge or turns a blind eye to the practice.

Question, will the current Warrant Officers become Staff Sergeants?

Cheers,
John

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by sarge5020

Question, will the current Warrant Officers become Staff Sergeants?

Cheers,
John

Should that be the other way round?

Marc

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by sarge5020

A couple of things;
In 2004 while on my senior leaders course, a fellow from an artillery unit was wearing a very nice Tudor crown cap badge so I think that many guys like to track down the older badges and wear them (until the RSM either sends them to QM for the proper badge or turns a blind eye to the practice.

Question, will the current Warrant Officers become Staff Sergeants?

Cheers,
John

Firstly, there has been no announcement I am aware of regarding a restructuring of the CF NCM ranks to return to the pre-Unification system. I've heard rumours - but only rumours - of a move among the junior NCMs to abolish Master Corporal and return the Lance Corporal appointment, but it seems like gossip at this point. I'll believe it when I see it. For what it is worth, the three levels of warrant officer work fine, and in 1939 there were three levels of same, though at that time the intent had been for the lowest grade of warrant officer to command platoons rather than act as 2 i/c as today. The British and Canadians ended up hating the idea of having warrant officers commanding platoons and eventually commissioned the majority of WO III.

With regards to Tudor crown badges, in the last 25 years, I've seen this commonly done on occasion also in The Calgary Highlanders and The Canadian Scottish Regiment to name two units that seem to turn a blind eye to the practice of substituting the pre-1953 pattern on an individual basis. As you note, individual sergeants-major may take different attitudes.

Again, as a storesman, I can testify that there are army regulations, and there is reality, where the ability to put stock (purchased in many cases, as is done with regimental badges, from private sources) on shelves supercedes the desire for a completely uniform appearance. Suppliers change, quality changes over time, and some of what happens does not get documented because the people actually wearing the stuff consider these changes to be matters of trivia.

[Bill A]

Correspondence dated 1959 indicates the Adjutant General was frustrated with the transition to St. Edwards crown badges. He notes "some progress had been made in affecting the change in crowns but there are still a total of 389,052 cap badges 44,641 collar badges (* as collars were issued in pairs, the odd number is puzzling), and 51,564 cloth trades badges with the Tudor crown". He reccomended that action should be taken to stop wearing the "incorrect crown" and those badges should be written off. He suggested the first step was to have the Canadian Army (Regular) conform. The Director of Ordance Services, after some research, replied that the policy required the CA (Militia) conform at the same time (several regular force regiments had militia battalions, and most corps had reserve components). This would result in the write off of $91,977, (Tudor crowns) and an outlay of $24, 975, for St. Edwards crown badges. The DOS concluded his response with the note, "the authorized method of disposal of metal badges is by burial or drowning, and for cloth badges by burning."
An inventory taken at the time indicated that there were enough kc Canadian Postal Corps cap badges for the next 66 years.

[shootemup]

That is fascinating information, Bill. Thanks for sharing. I know that in many places the badges were written off by giving them to unit's affiliated cadet corps, and I am aware of examples of the cadet later joining the regiment and continuing to wear the Tudor crown badge. In the case of one militia regiment, the regimental band continues to wear the tudor crown badges and belt buckles still today...

[REMEVMBEA1]

In 1963 I was stationed in Pembroke Dock and employed as a vehicle inspector, I shared an office with a S/Sgt (Staff ball) who had served in WW2 and he still wore the second pattern REME badge with Tudor (King's) crown although there was practically no detail left due to his daily polishing.