FiFe & Forfar Yeomanry c1914

[GriffMJ]

Alan

Just to clarify...... did they re-role as FFY or become battalion "of" the Black Watch? There is a difference.

[Alan O]

They re-roled from mounted tps to infantry role.

They re-titled fro F&F yeo to the 14th Bn (F&FYeo) BW. They were a Bn of the BW 1917-18 but retained their yeomanry antecedents.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

They re-roled from mounted tps to infantry role.

They re-titled fro F&F yeo to the 14th Bn (F&FYeo) BW. They were a Bn of the BW 1917-18 but retained their yeomanry antecedents.

Alan

Alan

Excellent, then I would take from that then they are fully part of the Black Watch for the duration of the War and then become FFY proper again after the War?

The fact that "two" regimental numbers exist for a man that was FFY and then 14th Battalion means Two seperate regiments. RHQ Btn would have BW officers from other BW Battalions in it and Regimental HQ would have governed "all" the Black watch Battalions.

Gaylor shows one badge for the Territorial Black Watch Battalions in Plate 22(B1) and allocates this to the 4th,5th,6th & 7th (no mention of the 14th Btn)..... but as we have seen from Private Keiths photo he is wearing the BW badge and I am assuming it to be that one as they are a "Territorial". The post 1916 "demi-lion" pattern. Gaylor does not mention anything on the 14th (FFY) Btn in either Regular or Territorial Infantry (nor under the FFY/Yeomanry) section his book?

The LYPAO became part of the "Corps of Hussars" in 1918 and a new regimental number was given to each man on joining their new units (and wearing the Cap badge of that regiment....5th Lancers, 16th lancers & 4th Hussars). So the LY Squadrons pocketed their LY regimental badges until the end of the war.

[signalman]

One thing from your Skegness photograph is the knocked down front ends on a good few of the cap badges, as mine is. just an observation. Phil.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Alan

Excellent, then I would take from that then they are fully part of the Black Watch for the duration of the War and then become FFY proper again after the War?

The fact that "two" regimental numbers exist for a man that was FFY and then 14th Battalion means Two seperate regiments. RHQ Btn would have BW officers from other BW Battalions in it and Regimental HQ would have governed "all" the Black watch Battalions.

Gaylor shows one badge for the Territorial Black Watch Battalions in Plate 22(B1) and allocates this to the 4th,5th,6th & 7th (no mention of the 14th)..... but as we have seen from Private Keiths photo he is wearing the BW badge and I am assuming it to be that one as they are a "Territorial".

The LYPAO became part of the "Corps of Hussars" in 1918 and a new regimental number was given to each man on joining their new units (and wearing the Cap badge of that regiment....5th Lancers, 16th lancers & 4th Hussars).

A few issues combined. The 14th BW regt was disbanded in 1919 and then a 'new' F&F Yeo regt was re-raised in the early 1920s. This was the norm for the Tf and Yeo. So yes they were BW for the duration of the war after 1916.

The BW TF badge was worn from 1908-15. After that the Army suppiled its kit and their TF badge was one of the former TF badges that were not supplied. From 1915 the TF BW Bns would have been issued the regular badge. Private Keith would not have had a TF badge anyway as the 14th Bn were not a pre war TF bn but what was known as a Service Bn raised for the duration of the war.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Alan

I think I understood all of that

So, they would have worn the "Sphinx" Black Watch Regular pattern on their Glengary you think?

[Alan O]

Absolutely. The photo of your 14th Bn soldier would have been with a white metal badge with sphinx and scrolls.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

I am just reading through this thread:-

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ead.php?t=3080

"Dubaiguy" put up a picture of a Badge that is, accroding to him, a 14th (FFY) Btn "Thane"...... is this badge listed in any books as such?

I dont doubt the badge and I would like to see the back of it..... it is identicle to Fig: 188 in Wilkinsons book (Pattern 2)..... and he has it as "White Metal c1908-56 with slider"..... even down to the unvoided hind legs (the Helmet Mantle has been bent downwards on the example below).

I am sceptical about the 14th (FFY) Btn connection ....... but its a great example of a brass version of the badge. It appears that the brass version is a bit more rare than the white metal version in either pattern (a brass pattern 1 more so... I think)? Could it be that the brass badge was worn by NCO's of the FFY c1908-17..... its pheasable and explains the lack of quantity (at least three NCO's appear to wear a brass badge in the "Skegness" picture c1915...... its a "very Yeomanry" thing to do also)?

[Alan O]

These are certainly old but I still reckon that they are pre-war for another headgear or just after 1908 changes from the IY designs before the regt settled on the w/m ones. It might be that the NCOs wore these not because they were NCOs badges but because they were 'old sweats'.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Alan

I agree.......... so, the brass badges in either pattern are c1908 issue possibly in one big batch (along with white metal)...... but the white metal was the regimental preference?

Brass badges should have a "premium" because they are rare (especially pattern 1 Fig:187 page 40 in Wlikinson's book)....... but they should not be associated with the 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch.... as the Officers of that Regiment only wore the "Thane" Collar badge (definatley) and the FFY buttons by the Officers & O/Rs (Possibly). The Head Dress of the 14th (FFY) Btn was either the Glegarry with the 1916 "Regular" Black Watch "Sphinx & Scrolls" or the Tam'o'Shanter with the red hackle only.

If collecting FFY (Great War) ..... then you should also collect The Black Watch badge as mentioned and the bronze "Thane" Collar badges with a period Black Watch button or FFY button (to be safe).

Would you agree with that?

[2747andy]

Whatever the Gilding metal/Brass badge turns out to be? (I still think something led to Bloomers designating it as 14BW).

I wish Griff would stop calling Wilkinson's 187 the "First Pattern"!!! This badge IMO, is an image of a copy and should not be relied upon as indicating the features of an original.

I have thrown all my F&F Yeo badges in the bin, as if I do not see one for another thousand years, I will not be too upset!

Andy

[Alan O]

It is supposed to be a 14th bn because it is supposed incorrectly to be a 1916 economy badge and therefore must have been worn when the regt was BW. In fact as I think has been shown fairly certainly it is not economy or BW despite the creative sales splurge.

As far as patterns go there are many dies in use over a 60 year period. There are 4 distinct types:

WM with multiple voids including voided reins.
WM with solid reins
Brass
WM small 1950s beret badge.

In additon there is a full size a/a badge of dubious parentage.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Andy

I am only using the term "Pattern 1" in reference to this post, right at the start I said I would refer to the two patterns in Wilkinson book as Patter 1 and Pattern 2.... its just easier Both badges look "valid" and I am sure that "fig;187 Page 40 Wilkinson" would have been put into the book having been qualified as an FFY Regimental Badge first?

The whole point of this thread was to try and establish a "firm" connection between the Brass "fig;188 Page 40 Wilkinson" and the 14th (FYY) Btn The Black Watch..... and in conclusion I think there is good enough reason to say that there is little evidence of a link..... wouldnt you agree (having seen random pictures of Soldiers from the period in both working & Regimental dress)?

Real : fig:187 Page 40 Wilkinson


Fake : fig:187 Page 40 Wilkinson

[davec2]

Hi Griff,

Hope you're well !

I don't follow the history of regiments with the same tenacity as yourself so my historical knowledge is very limited but I will point out that you mustn't set as gospel, what is written in any reference book.

Gaylor, K.& K. Bloomers and Wilkinsons have all published misinformation, just about every serious collector will point out mistakes in all editions, your remark [ and I am sure that "fig;187 Page 40 Wilkinson" would have been put into the book having been qualified as an FFY Regimental Badge first? ] need not necessarily be correct ??

Just my opinion, of course, happy researching.

Dave.

[GriffMJ]

Hi Dave

I am very open to all information given in the books..... I dont dismiss it......somewhere therin lies the truth.

I do like to prove something, either way, by good solid period evidence and in this case.... I think you will agree..... evidence is sadly lacking in the case of the Brass badge and the 14th (FFY) Btn, The Black Watch.

What would utterly convince me that it was the case is a photo of a 14th (FFY) Btn Black Watch soldier in regimental dress and a Glengarry with the Brass "Thane of Fife" in it.......... but I dont think there is such a photo.