15th King's Hussars - White Metal Base Scroll? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

2747andy · #1 29-04-10, 05:12 PM

Thoughts on this one please Gentlemen! I am away from my collection so I cannot compare it against my Genuine example with just the Crown in W/M.

It has the Correct dimensions (43 x 40mm) for a 1902-22 pattern ORs' 15 Huss Cap Badge.

It is a good weight and has a nice patina and polished finish. However the more I look, the more I think it is a restrike?

Does anyone else have one with a W/M base scroll?

The bad points IMO are:

The thin and footed lugs.

Overlaid parts do not have sweat holes (I know that is not always a bad sign!).

Rear is a bit smooth

I would have prefered to see it fitted with a slider. Is it a Genuine Cap badge (or other fitting) or not? Your thoughts please

Andy

(If the seller is reading this, there is no intention to doubt your integrity!)

GriffMJ · #2 29-04-10, 05:32 PM

Andy

Just one observation for me would be the length of the loops? Are they long enough..... they look a bit short?

wright241 · #3 29-04-10, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Thoughts on this one please Gentlemen! I am away from my collection so I cannot compare it against my Genuine example with just the Crown in W/M.

It has the Correct dimensions (43 x 40mm) for a 1902-22 pattern ORs' 15 Huss Cap Badge.

It is a good weight and has a nice patina and polished finish. However the more I look, the more I think it is a restrike?

Does anyone else have one with a W/M base scroll?

The bad points IMO are:

The thin and footed lugs.

Overlaid parts do not have sweat holes (I know that is not always a bad sign!).

Rear is a bit smooth

I would have prefered to see it fitted with a slider. Is it a Genuine Cap badge (or other fitting) or not? Your thoughts please

Andy

(If the seller is reading this, there is no intention to doubt your integrity!)

Andy,
I was under the distinct and definitive impression from a number of forum members that ANY badge with 'footed lugs' is a good enough reason to doubt a badges authenticity - regardless of any other aspect/attribute.
As I have had aspersions cast on a quite a few badges that I have posted in the past based purely on this observation, its got to be 'dodgy'.... or I have lost the plot somewhere in putting every badge with 'footed lugs' in a 'restrike/fake' bin?

David

GriffMJ · #4 29-04-10, 05:45 PM

Shouldnt the lions tail meet with the lion's mane in the crest?

James G · #5 29-04-10, 05:54 PM

David.

There's a lot of nonsence spouted around about footed lugs. Some genuine Victorian badges did have them. Not many. But they do exist. A lot is based on the theory that Victorian badgemakers who brazed on the lugs did it, day in day out for years and had no need of footed lugs which make the process easier. However the counter argument is that footed lugs have a larger surface area to braze and therefore give a superior joint which would be important to a craftsman.

Don't just dismiss a badge because of footed lugs. Look at all the aspects of a badge.

One of my Lincolnshire Volunteer badges which was in the Hugh King collection and sold by Boseleys has footed lugs. If both Hugh King and Boseleys think it's genuine that's a good start.

1stTankie · #6 29-04-10, 06:43 PM

Hi Andy

It is really good to have you back, welcome.

Do not worry about the footed lugs or the position of the lion's mane or the lack of sweat holes or even buying it! ( That's assuming you haven't yet!)

The words "pole" and "barge" come to mind.

I have put up two 15H badges, one qvc and one kc. Neither has a white metal scroll. Only the Royal Crest is in white metal and the lug attachments are normal.

I think this is pure invention (but well done.) The question is why?

Like you I must not and will not doubt the integrity of the seller but I suggest it is not really right.

Best wishes

Gordon

badgecollector · #7 29-04-10, 08:25 PM

hey gordon
nice badges and look genuine but following on from the previous comments, does your kings crown have footed lugs?
bc

1stTankie · #8 29-04-10, 09:15 PM

Hi bc

The short answer is no.

I usually scan my badges on a Hewlett Packard Scanjet 5300C and at times I agree it is not always easy to see that sort of detail.

Please accept my assurance that these lugs are not "footed".

I hold to the view that regardles of whether they are or not the validity of the badge is put in question by the inaccuracy of the front rather than what goes on behind.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes

Gordon

jeep · #9 01-05-10, 04:12 PM

I've not as yet been able to obtain a 15th KH badge to add to my collection, but both KK and Gaylor only mention a brass scroll. We all know that both publications, excellent as they are, do have errors and omissions. Gaylor however does state and I quote for the 15th/19th. "The anodised aluminium Q/C followed the K/C pattern but latter bi-metal issues have appeared with the motto scroll in both brass and in white metal." (see pics). If Andy's badge is genuine then it remains an open question as to why, where, when, but if a fake, could the culprit having seen the QC 15th/19th have deliberately tried to deceive by adding a WM scroll to a 15th badge in the hope of making a big profit on a 'rare' badge? In closing, the badge below did exist, but does anyone know if it was official issue or a PRI/local purchase item?

ivars · #10 24-04-16, 03:20 PM

It's some years on from Andy's question about the 15th Hussar KC badge with the white-metal scroll he purchased.

... this has just come up on ebay for 75GBP, cast rather than stamped, with a STARR PUTNEY stamped slider and white-metal scroll:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15th-Kings...item58d98d277e (see also attached jpg)

...as has a more dubious stamped example with footed lugs.
All 3 individual specimens are different from one another, and yet the white-metal scroll seems to be popping up.

Was it perhaps an early edwardian version that borrowed the white-metal scroll from the QVC pattern, and later discarded it?

...any thoughts?

Ivars

Alan O · #11 24-04-16, 05:10 PM

All fake in my opinion.

Starr was an outfitter for umbrellas and the like and did mark the Guildford pals badges they sold.

The QVC badge in my album has no overlaid scroll.

ivars · #12 25-04-16, 12:07 AM

Thanks very much, Alan-
It's bizarre what lengths people will go to to create something that never even existed!
One further question: is there any credence to genuine KC 15th hussars badges having the royal crest as it was on the QVC badge? - that is, with the lion's tail touching its head, rather than the lion as seen on KC 15/19th Hussars badges?
...also a more pointed outline on the crown at the side cross-paty's? (compared to the KC 15/19th style crown)
Or was this again something more to do with different makers variants?

... just trying to keep an eye out for an "echt" KC badge amidst all the dubiousness out there.
Cheers!
Ivars

Alan O · #13 25-04-16, 10:12 AM

It sounds like a makers' variation rather than a bespoke design change.

Alan O · #14 20-05-16, 11:30 AM

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15th-Kings...UAAOSwbcJXPilO

Another Starr Putney one. It clearly has some age to it and the seller does sell on collections bought at auction.

It is clearly not made for the WD as per the sealed pattern as it has the w/m scroll and being die cast.

Starr were an outfitters so they may have had them made for commercial sale. The overlaid scroll was a feature of the officers' badges but I don't think the quality is good enough for a cavalry officer to have worn.