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  #1  
Old 06-03-20, 08:20 PM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Default 1st QDG anodised cap badge oddity

This may have been discussed here before but I couldn't find a relevant thread.

I noticed amongst my 1st QDG anodised group that the fully voided FIRMIN LONDON marked example is clearly from a die very different to all other makers or void combinations. In fact, the die used on this cap vadge would appear to be possibly from the original Kings Dragoon Guards.

Attached the example I refer to (left) and a Gaunt example (right) for direct comparison. All others are like the Gaunt example - even other Firmin made examples (with half voids etc). I also have a few maker variations in 'new metal' or chrome and these too are as the Gaunt example.

Any thoughts comments?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200306_194952.jpg (57.9 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg 20200306_195008.jpg (75.1 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg 20200306_195019.jpg (75.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 20200306_195028.jpg (70.6 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg 20200306_195035.jpg (63.2 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 20200306_195210.jpg (59.8 KB, 80 views)
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  #2  
Old 06-03-20, 08:40 PM
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grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
This may have been discussed here before but I couldn't find a relevant thread.

I noticed amongst my 1st QDG anodised group that the fully voided FIRMIN LONDON marked example is clearly from a die very different to all other makers or void combinations. In fact, the die used on this cap vadge would appear to be possibly from the original Kings Dragoon Guards.

Attached the example I refer to (left) and a Gaunt example (right) for direct comparison. All others are like the Gaunt example - even other Firmin made examples (with half voids etc). I also have a few maker variations in 'new metal' or chrome and these too are as the Gaunt example.

Any thoughts comments?
Thats a nice collection you have there.
Andy
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  #3  
Old 06-03-20, 08:51 PM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Thanks mate
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  #4  
Old 06-03-20, 09:02 PM
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From what I understood was that the non void example was originally meant to be the KDG anodised version . Obviously when they were amalgamated the badge became the QDG 1st issue. The non void example is shown in Kipling and King.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-20, 06:59 AM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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It would be interesting to see what badge is on a sealed pattern. The 1st the Queens Dragoon Guards anodised cap badge is sealed in 1965 - so the FIRMIN LONDON mark is contemporary for that period.

I have 2 examples ( fully voided) marked FIRMIN LONDON and they have 2 differing dies - the apparent KDG style and the other, which is as all other examples.

I say all other examples because for some reason they vary with voids, half voids and fully non voids - for which there doesnt seem to be any reason ( but have the same basic die)

The obvious variations between the KDG style and all others are:-
Tail feather shape
Wing feather shape
Size of shield
Shape of the strap between wing tip and eagle head.


Does anyone else have the KDG style and know anything about it?
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  #6  
Old 12-03-20, 01:32 AM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Hi Bess,
I think your a/a badge for the QDG badge is very early (circa late 1950's).
The Firmin maker stamp & slider is correct for an early badge and as you say looks more like a K.D.G badge than a Q.D.G.
If I was you I'D hang on to this one as I feel this may well have been an early variant badge to the Q.D.G. If not happy with it sell it to me lol!
Regards
Colin
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  #7  
Old 13-03-20, 02:03 AM
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Hi Guys,

One of the standard sealed patterns for the 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards is dated 14th April 1959 and marked J.R.GAUNT LONDON.

The badge is solid between the two eagles necks and crown - i.e. is non-voided with the upper half being flat while the lower part is seeded. It has a CB No. of 3004.

Regards,

Chris
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  #8  
Old 13-03-20, 02:40 AM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Ok so if the fully voided is the supposedly earliest version marked Gaunt London ( and there is another Firmin London), why are there half voids and what would appear to be the later versions which are fully voided?

Additionally what is the unusual die version ( Firmin London) which is fully voided that I mentioned at the beginning? Which is totally different to all the others?
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  #9  
Old 13-03-20, 02:48 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
Ok so if the fully voided is the supposedly earliest version marked Gaunt London ( and there is another Firmin London), why are there half voids and what would appear to be the later versions which are fully voided?

Additionally what is the unusual die version ( Firmin London) which is fully voided that I mentioned at the beginning? Which is totally different to all the others?
Voiding is not part of the die and is not carried out by the cold die forging process as/was used in A/A cap badges. Voiding is carried out by individual tools specifically made for each voided space.

Maybe the non-voided badges missed the voiding process, tools mislaid or lost or possibly the dude or dudette who was supposed to carry out this task couldn't be assed.

Regards,

Chris
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  #10  
Old 13-03-20, 02:57 AM
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Attached in a modern 'New Metal' SASC cap badge with poor voiding around the Crown possibly carried out on a Friday morning after a night on the grog...

And no, this badge is not a fake/repro.

Shame as these badges are actually quite scarce.

Regards,

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SASC.jpg (57.0 KB, 30 views)
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  #11  
Old 13-03-20, 09:02 AM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Voiding is not part of the die and is not carried out by the cold die forging process as/was used in A/A cap badges. Voiding is carried out by individual tools specifically made for each voided space.

Maybe the non-voided badges missed the voiding process, tools mislaid or lost or possibly the dude or dudette who was supposed to carry out this task couldn't be assed.

Regards,

Chris
Thanks Chris. However I'm sure 'couldn't be assed' would be acceptable by any QA department at Firmin or Gaunt, to account for a badge not having the QDG void cut out, ha!

There was something happening here. When I first started looking at these differences I looked up K&K - which was my first mistake because its incorrect with regard to this cap badge. The images of the KDG and the 1st QDG are of different badges (both voided) but states that 1st the QDG was sealed 15th Sept 1965 ( which is why I mentioned it above - and Chris quite rightly commented it was of course 1959, when the merger was enacted).

What is interesting is that when regiments merge there is generally a new badge created or a slight variation or addition to one of the regiments badge to be used by the new regiment.
However it would appear that 1st the QDG retained the old KDG badge (along with the merger of 17/21st lancers into the QRL which ultimately had originally retained the 17th 'Chad' for the new combined regiment).

However, the anomaly here is that Chris states that the pattern card dated 1959 for the anodised badge ( which the new merged regiment badge would gave been) is non voided on the Gaunt London mark. Further to that the non voided area is patternised with a horizontal line splitting the diamond shaped void, with half being seeded. That isnt an error or a space that should be cut out . . . . .its part of the badge.

Is it possible that to 'identify' and 'differentiate' the new 1st QDG from the old KDG badge, the space was to remain filled as it were?

What it doesnt explain however is the half void, or why the badges were later all fully voided AND what the original badge I mentioned in this post actually is . . . . . which is fully non voided, using a completely different die to all others ( being more akin to the KDG die) and has an early Firmin London mark.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200313_080607.jpg (78.1 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 20200313_083303.jpg (80.7 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by bess55; 13-03-20 at 09:13 AM.
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  #12  
Old 14-03-20, 01:06 PM
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I'm wondering if the non void and half void was retained because of the slider attaching. It's a possibility that the attachment of fixings was still an issue.
The newer badges have the slide fixed further down ( centre of the shield ) if I recall correctly.
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  #13  
Old 14-03-20, 01:25 PM
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I have the solid Gaunt version that Chris mentions and the slider is affixed to the rear of that part of the badge. Subsequent issue with the slider placed lower down enabled the void to be created.
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  #14  
Old 14-03-20, 05:45 PM
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Malcolm Davey Malcolm Davey is offline
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Here are 5 Gaunt and Firmin AA Badges
Half Void
Small Void
Curved Join Wing and Head
Non Void
Straight Join Wing and Head
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Gaunt and Firmin.jpg (118.8 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Firmin Half Void.jpg (70.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Firmin Small Void.jpg (79.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Firmin curved join Wing and Head.jpg (91.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Gaunt No Void.jpg (73.6 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Gaunt Straight Join Wing and Head.jpg (66.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Gaunt and Firmin Backs.jpg (49.5 KB, 12 views)
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Last edited by Malcolm Davey; 14-03-20 at 05:52 PM.
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  #15  
Old 14-03-20, 06:32 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is online now
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Many thanks for showing a good ref
David
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