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  #1  
Old 16-01-18, 09:58 PM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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Default Very early RAF OR's badge: bazaar copy/trench art/genuine?

20180116_195727.jpg

20180116_195808.jpg

I wonder what the collective opinion of the forum is regarding this (apparently-old) RAF cap-badge. I am unaware of any pictured instances of anything quite like it, though am prepared to be advised that it is a non-issue (nor even any form of official prototype).

Clearly, it is unvoided, and is of a quite-rough style of manufacture.

Far from being a JR Gaunt brass 'uncirculated', it suffers from a curious spot oxidisation at the 4 o'clock face position.

Note that as a pressing (not a sand-pour) the thin blank has been misaligned slightly in the stamp & die process.

It has more than a certain period charm, despite it's curious characteristics. Although feeling as if it might be as old as the RAF, it probably is not.

Ideally I shall be wrong in much of my conjecture, and it might be possessed of more significance than I'm expecting. Comments are very welcome.
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  #2  
Old 16-01-18, 10:52 PM
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It is nothing like anything I have seen before. The crown dimensions are not right although there is a lot of detail on the front. Is it made of brass? That type of corrosion is more commonly found on zinc based items. It gives me the impression that it was made as a sweetheart item.
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  #3  
Old 16-01-18, 11:03 PM
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Is it part of the Matchbox badge collection? Might be worth a google or forum search to find a list of the complete range.
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  #4  
Old 17-01-18, 04:33 AM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil2M View Post
Is it part of the Matchbox badge collection? Might be worth a google or forum search to find a list of the complete range.
An interesting idea- if it is, the whole design and pattern of the badge could pre-date the 1978 series by perhaps 50yrs. I have a very-strong impression it is pre-WW2.

Does anyone know if the 1960s-70s Lesney 'anodised' collector badge series was indeed pre-dated by an ancient precursor?

Here is the mid-late '70s anodised(?) QC 'standard' RAF badge, from an online collection of Lesney/Matchbox badges...

http://www.blue-gold-angel.com
(I cannot estimate it's size/scale from these pictures, were these 1:1 or smaller, like the anodised WRAF hostess lugless stitched hat-badges?)

ps I should also say that I was unable to locate many references within the forum to any Matchbox / Lesney badge collectors series (other than the URL cited above). Searching directly online is also not productive...too many "clutter returns" on the RADAR

pps from me, a mystified observation. Why on earth (in general terms) did Lesney Matchbox ever create an entire back-catalogue of collectable copies, of what were (then) fairly-commonplace military cap-badges. My logic query holds equally-true, if indeed there was a 1920s/30s series of 'toy tin badges' made. Why would this be done, in the face of vast availability of the originals? I clearly remember as a Sixties kid, looking in awe at leather horsebrass belts absolutely solid with every conceivable (British) badge in the universe. Something of a clincher, proving that it is an example of a putative 1920s/30s Lesney badge series would be examples of other regimental equivalents, from that era, but similarly-unvoided

ppps in the case of my genuinely-mysterious badge....I bought it from the USA perhaps 5 or so years ago, but I am almost stumped by it. I agree that it does not entirely seem to be brass, and although it has a mis-register edge at the crown top (indicating to me a cold-press) there may be something of the tin star pour feel to it.

It really is a very odd item, and unquestionably-rare, whatever the blazes it is. As stated above, my instinct is to place it as early post WW1...though part of me wonders if it could somehow be a 1918 founding commemorative, made within and for the new Force, in some form of trench-art (it is far too rough and honest a piece to be a sweetheart badge....nor, to be fair, any glint of attractiveness as a contemporary-to-era collectable. It has, now, an impressive presence about it...)

Last edited by Harlequin; 17-01-18 at 05:20 AM.
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  #5  
Old 17-01-18, 07:35 AM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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2018-01-17 07.02.28.jpg

I've applied some further thought to this badge, and have come up with some radical observations. But they are logical, and substantially-inarguable.

I think this badge design pre-dates the official 1918 design, and I'm about to convince you that I'm possibly right.

Firstly, my key point is that it has been designed by someone who has not seen what we are now familiar with as the 'sealed knot' pattern, but is a free-form adaptation of the preceding RFC design.

Look at the letter "A". It is entirely-different from the other two RFC-derived letters. It has a chevroned cross-spar, which is totally-unique in comparison with any other RAF monogram badge (see yellow arrow).

The serifs on the feet of the "A" are fluted, and not ball-ended (as with normal RFC/RAF monograms)- see my red arrows.

The junction at the descender base of the trailing down-stroke to the "R", and the staff of the "F" (marked with my blue arrow) meet at the same level, rather than the ascending cascade of the official pattern.

But the most-radical difference, of all, is that the base-staff of the letter "F" is on top of the inserted "A" (my white arrow)...and the new 1918 "A" is not behind the "R" on the left, as viewed!!

Also, note that the top of the "F" projects as a higher shoulder to the "A" than the "R", betraying it's 'original' position and height (ie in the middle).

That letter "A" is entirely-unparalleled by any other example of the conventional RAF monogram that I have ever seen. Look at the wide splay of the legs, and the shorter, squatter, less-angular shape of the entire letter, relative to the approved design (and note the also-unique top-serif at the apex of the "A", rather than the conventional rising taper, hence dropping the crown to a lower-than-normal location).

This badge could almost be the first-ever RAF cap-badge, unofficially produced in the field for a brand-new force, prior to official pattern ones reaching the front.

Or: why could what I'm cautiously-proposing not be true, based upon sheer logic?

Last edited by Harlequin; 17-01-18 at 08:15 AM.
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  #6  
Old 17-01-18, 08:45 AM
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You have obviously totally convinced yourself you have something that you have not.

Its just a poorly made copy of the cap badge, probably made and sold in the bazaar of some third world country we once occupied and designed to be bought as a souvenir by an airman for his missus etc.

Its poor quality and lack of accuracy are typical of such items made by young boys who had probably never even held a real cap badge.

Sorry but you need a reality check here.

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  #7  
Old 17-01-18, 09:17 AM
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"Pre dates the official 1918 design"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Attachment 183585

I've applied some further thought to this badge, and have come up with some radical observations. But they are logical, and substantially-inarguable.

I think this badge design pre-dates the official 1918 design, and I'm about to convince you that I'm possibly right.

Firstly, my key point is that it has been designed by someone who has not seen what we are now familiar with as the 'sealed knot' pattern, but is a free-form adaptation of the preceding RFC design.

Look at the letter "A". It is entirely-different from the other two RFC-derived letters. It has a chevroned cross-spar, which is totally-unique in comparison with any other RAF monogram badge (see yellow arrow).

The serifs on the feet of the "A" are fluted, and not ball-ended (as with normal RFC/RAF monograms)- see my red arrows.

The junction at the descender base of the trailing down-stroke to the "R", and the staff of the "F" (marked with my blue arrow) meet at the same level, rather than the ascending cascade of the official pattern.

But the most-radical difference, of all, is that the base-staff of the letter "F" is on top of the inserted "A" (my white arrow)...and the new 1918 "A" is not behind the "R" on the left, as viewed!!

Also, note that the top of the "F" projects as a higher shoulder to the "A" than the "R", betraying it's 'original' position and height (ie in the middle).

That letter "A" is entirely-unparalleled by any other example of the conventional RAF monogram that I have ever seen. Look at the wide splay of the legs, and the shorter, squatter, less-angular shape of the entire letter, relative to the approved design (and note the also-unique top-serif at the apex of the "A", rather than the conventional rising taper, hence dropping the crown to a lower-than-normal location).

This badge could almost be the first-ever RAF cap-badge, unofficially produced in the field for a brand-new force, prior to official pattern ones reaching the front.

Or: why could what I'm cautiously-proposing not be true, based upon sheer logic?
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  #8  
Old 17-01-18, 09:45 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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The "official" cap badge for airmen in 1918 was a little different!
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File Type: jpg P1030293.jpg (17.3 KB, 45 views)
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  #9  
Old 17-01-18, 09:54 AM
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Based upon sheer logic it could be true.

But...

In truth what is more likely, that it’s previously unknown and un-recorded pre-1918 RAF cap badge or it’s a bazaar made sweetheart item for personnel serving in some far flung exotic land?

Unofficial badges, of which there are many, are born out in photographs, regimental histories and diaries. I’ve never heard of an unofficial pre-1918 RAF cap badge (happy to be corrected) so that this is a bazaar made sweetheart badge is infinitely more likely.

In the absence of any evidence I’m afraid as the saying goes ‘that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof’.

I don’t believe much can be garnered from the shape of the RAF monogram. A quick search for RAF sweetheart badges shows the monogram comes in all sorts of fonts, shapes, verity of twirls and crossovers.

Never say never, but I agree with Simon and Frank.

Cheers,
Luke
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  #10  
Old 17-01-18, 10:04 AM
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True?
How on earth can it be true, how could it possibly be a "pre 1918 RAF cap badge"?
The briefest glance at AMWO 545 shows that even without absolutely any "sheer logic" whatsoever, it cannot be true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Based upon sheer logic it could be true.

But...

In truth what is more likely, that it’s previously unknown and un-recorded pre-1918 RAF cap badge or it’s a bazaar made sweetheart item for personnel serving in some far flung exotic land?

Unofficial badges, of which there are many, are born out in photographs, regimental histories and diaries. I’ve never heard of an unofficial pre-1918 RAF cap badge (happy to be corrected) so that this is a bazaar made sweetheart badge is infinitely more likely.

In the absence of any evidence I’m afraid as the saying goes ‘that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof’.

I don’t believe much can be garnered from the shape of the RAF monogram. A quick search for RAF sweetheart badges shows the monogram comes in all sorts of fonts, shapes, verity of twirls and crossovers.

Never say never, but I agree with Simon and Frank.

Cheers,
Luke
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  #11  
Old 17-01-18, 10:44 AM
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Frank that was more in reference to the ‘never say never’ element, as I cannot physically disprove it, however we all know 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999% (would have put a infinitely more 9’s but my thumb got tired) what it is...

E.g. If someone were to tell me that badge belonged to Hugh Trenchard himself I couldn’t disprove it as I wasn’t there and don’t have evidence to the contrary. But I know flying pigs is more likely.

Last edited by Luke H; 17-01-18 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Added an e.g
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  #12  
Old 17-01-18, 12:38 PM
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Looking at it..... quality of design poor, pin to rear def, not WW1 period.
Material quality is poor.
In my opinion an individual's take on the RAF badge and sold in a market place during occupancy by British forces .
It is sadly nothing special .
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Steve
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Old 17-01-18, 12:44 PM
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Something that has not been mentioned is the design of the clasp. An investigation into the style of clasp may reveal the period of manufacture.

Off hand I have only seen similar (not exactly the same) clasps on fashion jewelery brooches c.1960/70's.
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  #14  
Old 17-01-18, 01:43 PM
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Seen this type on late WW2 into 50s badges ....may be hard to "pin" down the exact period
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  #15  
Old 17-01-18, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
The briefest glance at AMWO 545
That would be lovely.

Rgds, Thomas
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