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  #1  
Old 20-04-09, 06:54 PM
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Default Dating JR Gaunt Bham badges

Chris has done some research and reckons that the JR Gaunt Bham mark was used from 1973 and came about with the move of production. The dating of badges is made difficult by the restriking of both bi-metal and a/a badges by Gaunts. You find Bham marks on RND, WW1 Guards and some rare late 1950s badges.

Now I do have a JR Gaunt Bham badge in a/a for the Catering Corps. This is the scroll-less version. Such a common and unexciting badge (apologies to any ex-ACC readers) was not likely to be restuck and is 99% contemporary.

'Ah-ha' I thought 'it must be earlier than we thought' But then I read that Gaylor dates the change of badge design to 1973 - so this would be one of the last made scroll-less ACC badges made and one of the first to be made with the firm's new stamp?

Can anyone else provide any information on this 1973 date?

Alan
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  #2  
Old 21-04-09, 02:59 PM
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Alan

I have a similar badge with the Gaunt B'ham stamp.

I found this buttons site which states that JR Gaunt Birmingham was in operation until 1973when it was then bought by Gaunt London.

http://www.oldcopper.org/button_makers.htm

Paddy
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  #3  
Old 21-04-09, 05:42 PM
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Paddy,

I think they are mistaken. They were one and the same firm just with 2 manufacturing locations. It was a change of head office that changed the title on sliders but Gaunt Bham buttons had been around long before then..

Alan
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  #4  
Old 21-04-09, 07:05 PM
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I think a visit to Companies House is in order - I have a long list of makers I'd like to find out about !
The Gaunt archives I have seen are no later than the 2nd WW (if that).
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  #5  
Old 21-04-09, 07:48 PM
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Default Gaunt’s Badges - Birmingham or London Made?

Although I’m still new to badge collecting I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that by the 1970s much of Gaunt’s badge production was carried out in London, but that their buttons were made in Birmingham. I understood that when the Birmingham Mint bought Gaunt (both the London and Birmingham factories) in 1973, that this is when all the London badge manufacturing was transferred to the Birmingham side of the Firm? I had assumed that this was why all those badges that had previously been marked “J.R. Gaunt London” then began to carry a “J.R. Gaunt B’ham” mark. However Alan’s comments suggest that this change of mark was merely to do with the shutting of the Head Office in London, so maybe many of the badges up to 1973 had actually been made in Brum after all but simply marked London because that was where the Company’s registered office was? It would be really good to know more about Gaunt’s history, as well as the facts about what was made where and when - maybe Julian can come up with something? Here’s hoping he can, as I for one would be very glad to hear about it.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-06-09 at 07:20 PM.
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  #6  
Old 22-04-09, 12:16 PM
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Default Gaunt Restrikes, etc.

I have read elsewhere that at some point Gaunt’s original dies found there way into the hands of a third party, who then went on to use them to restrike many of Gaunt’s badges. I have also seen that a company was supposedly registered specifically to restrike Gaunt’s badges, though how true this is and when this was I do not know? Nevertheless it is interested to note that according to Companies House’s on-line WebCHeck facility a company called “JR Gaunt & Son Limited” was incorporated as recently as November 2002, with its registered office at 20-22 Bedford Row in London. This was after another company had been incorporated in July of the same year called “Gaunt Limited”, also with its registered office at the same address. Neither of these companies appear to have any connection with the original “J.R.Gaunt & Son, Limited”, which eventually became part of The Firmin Group in 1991. In fact the “JR Gaunt & Son Limited” that was set up in 2002 seems to be connected with Cleave & Company Ltd, who style themselves “Creators of Insignia, State Gifts and Objets d’Art”. I wonder if Kevin’s trip to Companies House might tell us any more about this?

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-06-09 at 07:22 PM.
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  #7  
Old 24-05-09, 06:42 PM
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Default J. R. Gaunt, The Birmingham Mint & Firmin

I came across some more information today about Gaunt on John Dunnigan’s excellent buttons site, and which I thought might be worth noting here. In particular Mr Dunnigan has uploaded a scan of a letter he received back in 1985 from J.R. Gaunt & Son Ltd in which some of the Company’s history is given. The letter, as well as confirming the fact that Gaunt was indeed sold to The Birmingham Mint in 1973, also says that “the London and Montreal companies ... were only selling outlets, not factories”. I am not sure how significant this statement is, as the letter is specifically concerned with button manufacture and does state that the information was “obtained from various employees”. I had been led to believe that Gaunt actually made badges in London, though when this would have been I do not know, but perhaps given the above statement maybe this was not the case after all. In the light of the letter, it would be interesting to know if anyone has any evidence of Gaunt actually making items in London? Another interesting item on Mr Dunnigan’s site is an open joint-letter from J.R. Gaunt & Son Ltd & Firmin & Sons Plc, confirming the details of Firmin’s takeover of Gaunt from The Birmingham Mint Limited in 1991.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-06-09 at 07:23 PM.
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  #8  
Old 25-05-09, 07:53 AM
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Hi Guys,

I have been going into the history of quite a few badge makers in recent months and Gaunt is a pretty difficult one to come to terms with due to conflicting historical write ups in many web sites and actual written book pages even though the history of the company is relatively recent.

I am though of the opinion that the marks to sliders and bodies of London and Birmingham for anodised aluminium cap badges are related to the location of administration except in the final years while under Firmin ownership when admin was transferred back to London.

As such, I believe all badges were manufactured in Birmingham. They were marked London while admin was initially in London, changed to Birmingham in 1973 when taken over by the Birmingham Mint and when admin shifted to Birmingham. They were however, retained as Birmingham during the 1991-1993 Firmin era even though administration reverted back to a London location.

This conclusion comes from the reading official WO/MoD correspondence and company note paper and while is most feasible is not definite.

I would therefore exercise caution to the statements above that I have made.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Chris
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  #9  
Old 26-05-09, 06:54 PM
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Default J. R. Gaunt & Son Ltd and J.R. Gaunt & Son Ltd!

Further to my comments in post #8 of this thread about the ‘other’ J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited that only came into existence in 2002, I’ve been looking at the Intellectual Property Office’s webpages about Trade Marks with some interesting results. It would seem that a crested trademark with the writing “Gaunt” and “Court Jewellers & Medallists” underneath was registered by what would seem to be this very same company, given as “J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited”, in 2002; though at that time with an alternative address of 3 St James Place, London. If anyone is interested the details of the trademark can be found using the IPO’s Trade Mark Enquiry facility.

Intriguingly it turns out that the Birmingham Post carried a brief article in their issue for 21 November 2002 entitled ‘Firmin is facing unusual legal action’, in which it said that they had “become embroiled in a legal row over the right to use the trading name of J R Gaunt, the business it acquired more than ten years ago” after another company “founded only last year” claimed it had the right to use the Gaunt name. The ‘new’ J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited were actually threatening legal action against Firmin, but Firmin’s then Director Mr Frederick Hsu, who thought the situation was “quite extraordinary”, was apparently taking advice at that point. At present I do not know the outcome of any of this, but still thought members of the Forum might be interested in things.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-06-09 at 07:26 PM.
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  #10  
Old 26-05-09, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley View Post

Intriguingly it turns out that the Birmingham Post carried a brief article in their issue for 21 November 2002 entitled ‘Firmin is facing unusual legal action’, in which it said that they had “become embroiled in a legal row over the right to use the trading name of J R Gaunt, the business it acquired more than ten years ago” after another company “founded only last year” claimed it had the right to use the Gaunt name. The ‘new’ J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited were actually threatening legal action against Firmin, but Firmin’s then Director Mr Frederick Hsu, who thought the situation was “quite extraordinary”, was apparently taking advice at that point. At present I do not know the outcome of any of this, but still thought members of the Forum might be interested in things.

Regards

Martin
Sounds crazy Martin - Firmin being threatened legal action for using their own property. I can't understand how the trading name of J.R. Gaunt & Son Ltd could have been re-issued. At company office in New Zealand even if the name sounds like one in existence or even if recently wound up it will be rejected and the attempted user of the name asked to think of another.

Yes, I'd be keen to keep up with this if you have acquire more information.

Regards

Chris
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  #11  
Old 02-06-09, 01:43 AM
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Hi Guys,

Some interesting info on the 2002 jokers...

http://www.ukdata.com/company-credit...N-LIMITED.html

Accounts were last analysed in September 2008.

A full financial credit report which includes to quote:

Company and industry comparison compares the subject company with all other companies within its industry type.

might be worth getting at 18 odd quid. Can four of us chip in say a fiver each and get a copy?

For yer 18 quid you seem to get all this. See here:

http://www.ukdata.com/help/creditrep...ions-full.html

I'm in for a fiver...

Regards

Chris
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  #12  
Old 02-06-09, 03:40 PM
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Default J. R. Gaunt Company Records

Hi Chris

Many thanks for posting up the link to the UK Data site for what they have on this ‘other’ J.R. Gaunt & Son who only appear in 2002. It does look interesting, though I have to say I’m not sure how useful the mass of financial information you’d get from this would actually be?

Julian (KLR) and Kevin (41st) have been looking into the possibility of getting information directly from Companies’ House in Cardiff about various badge manufacturers, and it seems CH will provide copies of things on microfiche for around £9; though again I’m not sure of the exact nature of the records that would be supplied or their ultimate usefulness as far as research would be concerned. If you’re interested it might be worth sending either Julian or Kevin a PM about things.

As to the original J. R. Gaunt & Son – I called in at Firmin’s works in Newtown, Birmingham, yesterday, and have now been given the name of a gentleman to write to about the Company’s history, etc. Once I am in touch with him I will ask him about the threat of legal action they were apparently faced with back in November 2002, and as noted in the Birmingham Post’s article. Presumably it has all blown over by now, but it would be interesting to find out more if we can.

Regards

Martin
__________________
From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 02-06-09 at 07:28 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-06-09, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley View Post
Hi Chris

Many thanks for posting up the link to the UK Data site for what they have on this ‘other’ J.R. Gaunt & Son who only appear in 2002. It does look interesting, though I have to say I’m not sure how useful the mass of financial information you’d get from this would actually be?

Julian (KLR) and Kevin (41st) have been looking into the possibility of getting information directly from Companies’ House in Cardiff about various badge manufacturers, and it seems CH will provide copies of things on microfiche for around £9; though again I’m not sure of the exact nature of the records that would be supplied or their ultimate usefulness as far as research would be concerned. If you’re interested it might be worth sending either Julian or Kevin a PM about things.

As to the original J. R. Gaunt & Son – I called in at Firmin’s works in Newtown, Birmingham, yesterday, and have now been given the name of a gentleman to write to about the Company’s history, etc. Once I am in touch with him I will ask him about the threat of legal action they were apparently faced with back in November 2002, and as noted in the Birmingham Post’s article. Presumably it has all blown over by now, but it would be interesting to find out more if we can.

Regards

Martin
Thanks Martin,

All very interesting - yes, keep in touch. I would like to find out what this new company makes...

Regards

Chris
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  #14  
Old 19-11-09, 09:55 AM
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Hi Guys,

Sorry to mess everyone about re: J.R. GAUNT B'HAM mark but I have recently established that this mark was in official use at least from January of 1967 and probably well into 1966.

As I progress through this A/A genre I'm having to re-think a few things mainly in narrowing areas down but in this case and for this particular item the time line has widened.

Regards

Chris
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  #15  
Old 19-11-09, 10:13 AM
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Chris,

Bringing the date forward is interesting and will affect some a/a badges. However the metal Yeomanry and cavlry badges are definately wrong even for 1965 and some a/a ones (RRs and 23rd London) were also gone weell before the mid 60s. I look forward to your further work.

Alan
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